Is the new high school accreditation bill making its way through the General Assembly a possible escape route for the Wake County school system?
As noted in today's article, the bill would prohibit North Carolina-run universities, colleges and community colleges from using school accreditation to make admissions, scholarship and loan decisions unless applicants come from high schools accredited by a state agency. It also would require the state Board of Education to begin accrediting North Carolina public high schools at the request – and expense – of the school districts.
Not coincidentally, its sponsors include legislators from Wake and Burke counties, where the school districts are on AdvancED's radar.
"They can pick on a small school system," said state House Majority Leader Paul Stam. "But when you pick on one of the best school systems in the state it will be noticed all across the state."
Stam is among the group of influential GOP lawmakers who sponsored the bill. He expects it be approved by both houses.
Stam said AdvancED lost all credibility with him when it continues to accredit the lowest performing high schools in the state while threatening the status of high achieving ones in Wake.
Mark Elgart, the president of AdvancED, questioned the value of the bill, saying it won’t help North Carolina students who go to colleges outside the state. Elgart also said North Carolina accreditation won’t be recognized by universities in other states, particularly those who only accept students from high schools that are accredited by nonprofit agencies such as AdvancED.
“The legislators need to be careful because not every student in North Carolina will go to a school or college in the state,” Elgart said.
Elgart, who was in Raleigh this week to present the report to Wake, met with officials from the state Department of Public Instruction and the Governor's Office to voice his concerns about the bill.
Comments
warning!
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 18:13 — louiselee44"It also would require the state Board of Education to begin accrediting North Carolina public high schools..." Just wanted to point out that this board is appointed by the governor. I've had several dealings with them in the past. Talk about politics and maneuvering - I couldn't believe it! So - that part needs to be reconsidered...seriously.
Good call. We should be
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 18:20 — woodstockGood call. We should be wary. Accreditations needs to include very clear standards and give school systems and boards the freedom and flexibility to implement policies that meet their needs... and there is no way that appointed partisans should play in role in it.
turn it up to eleven
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 14:22 — ThirdTimesTheCharmPassing a law to get around AdvancED accreditation makes no sense at all, but it will cost more money.
AdvancED's accreditation sounds quite simple to get and keep, but Wake County's School Board not only fails to keep it, they fail to understand why they fail. To top off their transgressions, the Board gives the county misinformation.
It's not like Wake County was unaware we have a problem. I haven't seen the board changing anything, except their volume.
Huh? You clearly have no
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 19:12 — woodstockHuh? You clearly have no earthy idea what you are talking about. I suggest you get informed, then back to us.
Pfft...
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 14:57 — Bob_SconceWhy do you think it will cost more money? You are aware, after all, that AdvanceEd accreditation isn't free, aren't you?
As to the accreditation being simple to get and keep, I suspect that AdvanceEd itself would disagree with you. In any case, even after the NAACP complaint, AdvanceEd re-accredited several of the district's high schools.
. . . fails to keep it . . .
Did I miss something? Was the accreditation actually taken away? That's not what the AdvanceEd letter says.
costly
Sat, 03/19/2011 - 17:56 — ThirdTimesTheCharmThe state will also charge for this service, plus the state will be paying salaries to the new officials who will conduct the accreditation. Then there's office space and travel allowances and who knows what else. And who provides money to the state? Taxpayers! That's how it will cost more.
I'm still wondering how the school board will pay for building new schools in all the neighborhoods currently without neighborhood schools. I don't say Wake doesn't need them, but I do say raising money for them will be tough.
You're double-counting
Sun, 03/20/2011 - 08:51 — Bob_SconceThe fee that local districts pay for the service will offset all or a portion of those other costs. That's like saying "look how much gasoline costs. In addition to what you have to pay the filling station, the filling station has to pay its employees."
Really ?
Sun, 03/20/2011 - 15:58 — Solon77The double counting argument assumes
1. A State Accreditation will completely serve the purpose and no other accreditation will be needed.
2. The state run agency will be more effective and cost efficient than a non gov't agency.
Good luck with that.
Huh?
Sun, 03/20/2011 - 16:48 — Bob_SconceIt makes no such assumptions. I'm just saying that part of the funding for the state organization will come from the local districts getting accredited, so you can't add the two together.
In any case...
(1) Apart from a vague suggestion by Mark Elgart, I haven't seen any reason to believe that state accreditation wouldn't be suitable. A few weeks back when I looked into the extent that college use accreditation in admissions, it looked like they all talked about "state or regionally accredited schools." Now, I supposed it's possible that there are schools out there that wouldn't accept NC's accreditation, but it's also possible that there are some that wouldn't accept AdvanceEd's. There are other states that accredit their high schools -- Massachusetts and Colorado, at leaast.
(2) That's a good point. However, AdvanceEd is, effectively, a monopoly -- they can basically set their fees whereever they want -- and, thus, suffers from the same core problem that make state services inefficient.
Massachusetts Accreditation
Sun, 03/20/2011 - 21:22 — Solon77There are other states that accredit their high schools -- Massachusetts and Colorado, at least.
With regards to MA, you will also find that practically every HS also carries NEASC accreditation. In Colorado a number of public HS also carry Advanced ED accreditation. Point being a state accreditation may not be enough and therefore adding a state accreditation is just increasing costs - and for what ? Boss Hog mentality of the school board members. If the board was forward thinking they would opt for a District Accreditation, leverage common vision and processes and avoid each HS maintaining its own. This would most likely save $ as well.
The environment is competitive enough and I for one would not be willing to walk away from accreditation and risk a deserving kid lose $100,000 in scholarship $ because of arrogant board members.
BTW - this issue proves Elgart's point that the board makes decisions on personnel experiences or knowledge without fully researching and understanding the consequences.
The environment is
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 07:35 — woodstockThe environment is competitive enough and I for one would not be willing to walk away from accreditation and risk a deserving kid lose $100,000 in scholarship $ because of arrogant board members.
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What are you talking about? With or without that impotent AdvancED accreditation, no deserving student would have lost a scholarship. As we are learning, AdvancED accreditation has NOTHING to do with high standards or academics. AdvancED has revealed what they are all about. They exist soley to bully school systems into kow-towing to their extreme left-wing ideology.
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BTW - this issue proves Elgart's point that the board makes decisions on personnel experiences or knowledge without fully researching and understanding the consequences.
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That is not true. There is hard evidence showing the status quo policies did nothing to improve the academic achievement of low income and minority student. In fact, their polcies have been proven to be discriminatory (math placement) and illegal (use of F&R numbers for students assignement); PLUS, performance declined as forced busing increased. The status quo board under the leadership of Rosa Gill and later Kevin Hill ignored public outcry and refused to study the impact of their policies claiming they "don't need a study because we know it works."
High standards or academics
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 12:36 — Solon77AdvancED accreditation has NOTHING to do with high standards or academics.
Ok, so on what basis would you accredite schools ?
What basis is AdvancED
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 12:48 — woodstockWhat basis is AdvancED using, that is the question. Can you articulate that? I doubt even they can.
That is not the question
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:52 — Solon77Is is easy to declare an organization as ineffective as has been repeatedly done - fair enough. But unless there is a willingness to step to the plate an offer an alternative, the bashing is not warranted. It is like the tea party - a valid cause advocating for smaller governemnt and lower taxes, but in doing so they need to provide specifics and alterntives. Otherwise it is mindless ranting.
Alternative
Tue, 03/22/2011 - 00:53 — SDR256The alternative is simply to produce stellar students who, by national standards - shine.
WCPSS had done everything to hide from that.
I'm so sorry, I forgot - this school system is the greatest! (In their own minds). - NC has its own standard - to make us all look good!
Following a national standard would be a start.
You have no idea what you
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 09:13 — magnetParentYou have no idea what you are talking about. Google "scholarship accredited high school"
Here is over $60000 in scholarships/grants etc gleaned from the first 2 pages alone:
Sodexo Foundation
$5000 grant
http://www.sodexofoundation.org/hunger_us/scholarships/scholarships.asp
" STOP Hunger Scholarships are open to students (Kindergarten through
graduate school) enrolled in an accredited educational institution
in the United States"
US EPA
Student Temporary Emplyment Program (STEP) and
Student Career Experience Program (SCEP)
"More specifically, you must be taking at least a half-time academic or vocational and technical course load at one of the following:
•accredited high school,
..."
http://www.epa.gov/careers/stuopp.html
Indiana University-Purdue University
Full tuition
"Students must be:
A 2011 graduate of a state accredited high school who is admitted to IPFW and who will earn an Indiana Core 40 or Academic Honors Diploma (residents of other states will have followed a college preparatory high school curriculum), and who rank in the top 5 percent of their high school class and have SAT scores of 1950 or greater or an ACT of 29 or greater with writing,
OR
A graduate of any school with an SAT of 2100 or an ACT of 32 or greater with writing."
http://new.ipfw.edu/financial/aid-sources/chancellor-scholarships.html
Lincoln University
Presidential Scholarship (80% tuition cost)
and Dean's scholarship (50% tuition cost)
and Soldier's scholarship ($1000/year)
and LU Founder's scholarship ($1500)
"The applicant must have graduated from an accredited high school (Missouri
and out-of-state applicants are welcome)"
http://www.lincolnu.edu/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=34c74f1b-ec9c-4220-8a51-ffb0cb596fab&groupId=12784
Eagle Scout Scholarship
($1000/yr)
"The recipients will be eligible to receive their scholarships immediately upon graduation from an accredited high school..."
http://www.jewishscouting.org/awards/njcoseaglescoutscholarshipprograms.asp
Discover Scholarship
$25,000
"To recognize high school juniors for their accomplishments beyond academics.
Applicants must be high school juniors at an accredited U.S. high school and have a minimum cumulative 2.75 GPA for their 9th and 10th grades"
http://www.supercollege.com/pop_scholarships/Discover_Scholarship_Program_886.cfm
UI JCI Senate Scholarship
$1000
"Applicants must be high school seniors and U.S. citizens who are graduating from a U.S. accredited high school or state approved home school or GED program"
http://www.supercollege.com/pop_scholarships/U_S__JCI_Senate_Scholarship_Grants_3200.cfm
Dell Scholars Program
$20,000
"To be eligible to apply for the Dell Scholars Program scholarship, you must meet the below listed criteria:
- Graduating from an accredited high school this academic year"
http://www.supercollege.com/pop_scholarships/University_Language_Services_College_Scholarship_4448.cfm
So...
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 09:55 — Bob_SconceNot enough time to go through all of those in detail, but I'll note that State accreditation appears to be sufficient for each of them. Heck, the Purdue one requires a "State accredited high school." Sounds like AdvanceEd accreditation isn't good enough for Purdue -- you actually have to be accredited by your state.
Currently, we do not have
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 11:21 — magnetParentCurrently, we do not have state accreditation. I was more replying to woodstock's assertion that "With or without that impotent AdvancED accreditation, no deserving student would have lost a scholarship".
As for your assumption about AdvancED isn't good enough for Perdue, it is good enough if you are valedictorian/salutatorian: "...Were recently recognized as a valedictorian or salutatorian from a regionally or state-accredited high school."
One could say that maybe we should have both...
And yet I know of graduating
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 11:18 — CaryCurmudgeonAnd yet I know of graduating seniors who have been accepted to Purdue without a state accreditation, showing again that this matter is way overblown.
I was talking scholarships,
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 11:22 — magnetParentI was talking scholarships, not acceptance...
So...
Sun, 03/20/2011 - 23:09 — Bob_SconceYou're right -- there's a lot of hand-waving but no real data. You say "state accreditation may not be enough." How do you know? How does Elgart know otherwise? He didn't provide any data either.
That brings an interesting question: if there's no data either supporting or opposing a current policy, then is it OK to abandon that policy? Do you need data to support continuing the policy, or only to drop it?
From what I've seen, high school accreditation is important at marginal schools -- the sort of schools that you'd believe get lots of applicants from fake schools accredited by Bill & Ted's accreditation agency. Raleigh Charter, for example, isn't accredited, yet seems to do quite well in placing its students (who, are probably not going to that sort of school). On top of that, there are lots of home-schooled students entering colleges now, where they frequently do quite well. Meanwhile, we have professors at NC State complaining about the quality of students graduating from the state's accredited high schools.
An acquaintance works in the admissions office in a college in Virginia. When I asked her about it, she said that it's not a factor at all anymore, but that her college won't say that for fear of annoying its own accreditors! (How is AdvanceEd going to feel about accrediting a college that says "Oh yeah, AdvanceEd's high school accreditation isn't worth anything to us"?)
If the board was forward thinking they would opt for a District Accreditation, leverage common vision and processes and avoid each HS maintaining its own.
IIRC, the District Accreditation does not imply that the schools are accredited. They'd each need to be accredited also.
How do you know ?
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 12:33 — Solon77You're right -- there's a lot of hand-waving but no real data. You say "state accreditation may not be enough." How do you know?
I don't know for sure, only that in the states you mentioned previously the HS all (or the majority) had AdvancedED certification. So if a state certification was adequate then why did these schools seek Advanced ED certification as well ?
If there is no benefit to Advanced ED certification - then prove that with data and I am ok, otherwise it is not prudent to end sometihng without knbowing the consequences. JT, RM or woodstock personal belief does not pass the theshold. Which is really the crux of the matter.
I do find it a bit ironic - neighborhood school model justified by 99% of the country does it this way and when it comes to AdvancedED we claim to know better and prefer to be the outlier.
So...
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 13:15 — Bob_SconceI agree it'd be imprudent to drop AdvanceEd accreditation without having a good idea of what the consequences are. Heck, it might be imprudent to drop it, even if there aren't any significant actual consequences, just because of the public perception.
You didn't get the memo?
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 09:25 — FSandYOUWe no longer have to build any new schools. We're going to convert some year round schools back to traditional schedules, fill up the others (including tracks 2&3, with or without volunteers) and with few, if any, moving here now the need for new schools is no more. Heck, we may even be able to close some schools in the next 3-5 years and issue tax refunds to everyone thanks to this Chamber/Alvies Plan. Where educating is a gimmie now thanks to those folks.
Misinformation?
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 14:28 — nancyncHow about there was no data kept about the diversity policy movement of students? Is that acceptable and now the board is supposed to pull this data out of their hats for the civil rights complaint they're trying to answer?
Let's be sure we're holding the right people accountable for the lack of information.
Yes, it's simple
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 14:26 — nancyncAs long as whatever school board they're looking at does exactly what they want them to do, including not changing policy should it upset a certain contingent.
That's not their domain, although they use their bully pulpit to force it with the threat of pulling accreditation based on very loose and broad 'requirements'.
They've done it before and they'll do it again, whenever they so choose.
Just got polled by Public Policy polling re: Wake county schools
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 11:38 — fiestamomJust hung up from a robocall poll from public policy polling re: Wake County Schools, I couldn't believe the tenor of the questions, so I started to write them down. Here is the wording, word for word:
I am willing to pay hhigher taxes to attend a school closer to my home.
Can you trust the federal/state/local government to do what is right?
Do you have more than 3 friends of a different race?
Do you have a favorable impression of Martin Luther King?
What percentage of Wake County students do you think are bussed for racial diversity?
I would love to know who hired liberal Public Policy Polling to ask me these questions. I like the ambiguity of "can you trust the government to do what is 'right;"
What?!
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 18:06 — louiselee44Are you serious? Who on earth would word questions like that? "3 friends of a different race"? What business is that of anyone's and why would any group want to know that? Martin Luther King (JR, I'm assuming they meant) - does my impression of him stereotype my in some way - or give a clue as to how I think Wake County should educate their students? I'm sorry, this is absurd.
Serious as a heart attack
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 19:32 — fiestamomYes, they really asked do you have at least 3 friends of a different race. That's why I would love to know who commissioned the poll.
The AdvancED report was a
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 14:10 — woodstockThe AdvancED report was a mere slap on the wrist by a politically motived organization that came to Wake County with the intent to engage in a full-out assault. That they produced such a pointless and toothless finding has the extreme left terrified.
Who among us (the *shudder*
Fri, 03/18/2011 - 21:49 — Andrew95Who among us (the *shudder* "far left") do you know that is terrified?
Clearly Barbar
Fri, 03/18/2011 - 21:58 — woodstockClearly Barbar and Michaels have taken dumps in their pants -- perhaps even literally -- out of sheer terror, which is why they are filling the media with their outrageous lies and innuendos. However, no one is buying it. Their desperate efforts to advance their racial politics have been impotent.
You're becoming deaf due to
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 22:11 — Andrew95You're becoming deaf due to your own bullhorn, stock.
But hey, it's your ears.
If those were the questions....
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 13:49 — nancyncThe bias is clear, those are pro-diversity questions, including the and specifically, because of the 'paying more taxes' nonsense.
That's when I grabbed the
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 14:16 — fiestamomThat's when I grabbed the pencil and started writing. I thought the questions were mildly biased, but as soon as I heard the "pay more taxes" question, I grabbed the pencil to make sure I wrote it down word for word. The robo call definitely didn't identify public policy polling until the end of the call.
It will be interesting when Reverend Barber, WEP or some other bussing supporter comes out with the results of this poll.
I didn't write down the other questions, but they had to do with family income, employment, whether I belonged to a political group or religious group, my voter affiliation, etc.
Was wondering how long it
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 13:48 — jenmanWas wondering how long it would take for PPP to do a poll. Odd set of questions.
I did too
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 11:54 — lferreriI got one of those calls last night. I didn't write down the questions, but most of them were about concerns over students being reassigned and concerns over diversity in the schools. I thought it was unusual that there were questions about how long I had lived here and where I had lived before moving here.
So what's the "right"
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 12:05 — fiestamomSo what's the "right" answer? Where did they come up with the magic number of 3- 3 friends of different races? If I only have two friends of different race, does that mean I don't get a diversity punch on my card? Or what if I have more than 3 friends of different race, but I said I don't have a favorable view of MLK? Who decides what/how to interpret that kind of data?
I agree
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 12:17 — lferreriI agree. Some of the questions were strange. Maybe Keung can get a full list of all of them.
Assuming the poll is
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 14:53 — KeungHui (author)Assuming the poll is released by PPP, we'll see what the questions are then.
While you're at it
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 17:45 — FSandYOUask them for the poll they did the other night asking if you'd vote for Charlie Sheen or Sarah Palin for President. Charlie won overwhelmingly.
Ask for those questions and then we'll all be able to see that PPP as is relevant as toothpaste is to hemorrhoids.
lol
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 19:37 — nancyncthen we'll all be able to see that PPP as is relevant as toothpaste is to hemorrhoids.
That made me almost ruin my keyboard as I was drinking soft drink when I read it - but sooo worth the risk :)
:c)
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 21:45 — FSandYOU:c)
Important
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 10:44 — HereWeGoI am glad they have something important on their agenda
Pfft...
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 08:35 — Bob_SconceElgart also said North Carolina accreditation won’t be recognized by universities in other states, particularly those who only accept students from high schools that are accredited by nonprofit agencies such as AdvancED.
Interestingly, Elgart didn't name any such schools. I wonder why.
I looked into this earlier this year, and it looks like state accreditation is acceptible. Consider, for example:
http://www.albanytech.edu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=518
TCSG will accept a high school diploma from a public school that is . . . regulated by a school system and state department of education.
Wow - Albany Tech the world famous technical...
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 09:16 — bpuli9999college? It is the number two college in Albany, GA. That's great! Maybe the University of Phoenix can be added to the list? I heard that the Caldwell/Watauga County Community colleges also do that. Here I was thinking the worst. Albany Tech to the rescue.
Is that the best you can come up with to support your argument? The moral here seems to be that republicans will turn to the government bailouts/solutions pretty quickly?
nice try, but . . .
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 09:29 — Bob_SconceIn general, it's only lower tier colleges that require ther students to come from accredited high schools. Besides, this was the first school to come up in google. But, nice try.
The evidence is clear ...
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 13:54 — nancyncBack in 2000, Wall Street Journal said that 68% of universities and colleges around the country accept non-accredited students who are home schooled (back then, they were the only ones not in the public school system who needed such concern)
Now stop and think about this, from March 2006 concerning the general attitude of many schools toward students who come from non-accredited situations:
In 2000, 52 percent of all colleges in the country had a formal evaluation policy for applications from homeschoolers, said David Hawkins, director of public policy for the National Association for College Admission Counseling.
Four years later, the number jumped to 83 percent. During that time, 45 percent of colleges reported receiving more applications from homeschoolers, he said.
Major schools that now post application procedures for homeschoolers on their Web sites include Michigan State University, Oregon State University and the University of Texas.
The Massachusetts Institute of Technology is also willing to consider homeschoolers. The highly regarded school does not require a high school diploma. As part of its admissions process, it considers scores from college entrance exams and asks applicants to submit a 500-word essay, detail five extracurricular activities and offer two teacher evaluations.
"We evaluate every student based on who they are," said Merilee Jones, dean of admissions at MIT.
Accreditation is not the end all to the prospects for a good students. Transcripts only compare one student to another from the same school, it means nothing concerning potential if a student comes from a (paid for) accreditation certified school.
Not anymore.
"Developing an alternative
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 07:47 — woodstock"Developing an alternative to accreditation from AdvancED"
This cannot happen fast enough. AdvancED has proven behind any shadow of a doubt that their goal is to promote and advance extreme left-wing ideals and are more than willing to employ bullying tactis in the process. Their days are numbered and they will soon be irrelevant. They've bullied the wrong folks.
They did not take...
Thu, 03/17/2011 - 09:17 — bpuli9999woodstock being here into account. Fatal mistake. Good bye, Mr Elgart & AdvancED! The unemployment line is your future ;-)