Should Wake County go back to using letter grades on report cards for at least some elementary school students?
That's what school board member Deborah Prickett suggested during last month's school board retreat. She said Wake should at least bring back the old-style report cards for grades three through five.
The issue came up as part of a discussion on the use of EVAAS to place students in math classes in middle schools.
Prickett brought up her experience as a middle school counselor, She said the lack of "real grades" in elementary school made it hard to know whether to place eighth-graders in Algebra I.
Prickett pointed back to how students get into advanced math in sixth grade, which in turns sets them up for pre-algebra in seventh grade and then Algebra I in eighth grade. But she said there's a real gap in information coming out of fifth grade so they have to rely on teacher evaluations.
Whether her idea goes very far remains to be seen. A discussion of grading practices, probably more focused on middle schools, is scheduled for Tuesday's board work session.
Since 2004, every Wake elementary school has used the Level I-IV system in lieu of letter grades. School leaders have argued that the Level-based report cards "has helped administrators and teachers at schools to improve assessment practices, guide instruction of the state standards, and provide more deliberate development of enrichment activities."
Seven years later, the elimination of letter grades on report cards hasn't won over some elementary school parents and at least some school board members like Prickett.
BTW, school administrators told board members earlier this year there are no plans to scrap the use of letter grades for middle school report cards. But they say they are looking at changes so that grades reflect what students know and not how they behave, including adopting practices such as not giving zeros.
Comments
Change is needed!!
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:03 — sam123456Yes, please get rid of the 1,2,3,4 rating scale --- it is the most ridiculous and subjective rating scale that I have ever seen. Everybody gets a 3 and 4’s are only for going above and beyond…whatever that means (it is never clearly described). One other observation (I have boys and girls) is that girls have a far better chance of getting a 4 than boys do. My two oldest kids were so happy to get to middle because now they know exactly what they need to do to get a grade.
Keep the 1,2,3,4
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 15:13 — jellybellyTo Deborah's concern -- What about three years of EOC scores in math and the EVAAS stuff? That should help place the kids properly. Also my kid was in regular math in 6th grade and got switched to pre-algebra in 7th. Happens all the time. I loved 1,2,3,4 because it ended parental grade bragging, kid anxiety and A's handed out for neat handwriting. The system tells you this: You don't know it all, you are getting close, you know it or you are a full grade ahead on the subject. Less subjective. And if a teacher is giving out 3's to lots of kids who aren't passing their EOCs it gives administrators the opportunity to review whether the curriculum is being taught or the teacher is grading appropriately. They went to this system, afterall, because kids were getting A's and flunking those state tests. And let's face it. Teachers are loathe to put a D on a kids' report card -- but they'll put a 2 on it. As for kids trying hard to get 4's and not getting them -- well that is what the 3* is for. I loved this approach despite having two very different kids -- one who struggled a little bit (and would have further "labeled" himself if he was getting letter grades because they would have been C's) and one bright one who would have gotten a lot of A's, but is very anxious. Both adjusted fine to A,B,C in middle school and have done very well. It didn't impact them at all and "C" guy got much stronger. Finally, and this was helpful -- both children had a 5th grade teacher who added a letter grade to individual assignments to help the kids mentally "transition" to letter grades. They weren't on report cards but they were on tests and projects. And finally, while I"m the kind of person who thinks giving out trophies for "participation" is stupid, I think honor rolls in elementary school are just as stupid. Kids develop at different rates. Some are late bloomers -- others catch on quickly early but struggle with the workload later. There are lots of ways to honor bright, hard-working kids without the honor rolls which I think put pressure on teachers to give A's to kids who are well-behaved and try hard but aren't necessarily doing A work. Teachers have told me the conferences would end up all about why suzie got a B on her book report and not an A. Now they're about what the kid has mastered and what they haven't.
need to change
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 17:18 — sam123456The biggest problem with 1,2,3,4 system is that the kids have no idea as to what they need to do to get a 4. To help my child, I have asked teachers "what specifically needs to be done to get a 4" on an assignment. The typical response I get is that the child needs to go "above and beyond". When I ask the teacher what does "above and beyond" mean I get very subjective type responses. The end result is that the children become sensitized to the fact that they are going to get a middle of the road grade so it is hard to motivate them to strive to get a 4 especially when they don't even know the criteria for getting a four. The time for change is NOW...
Change is needed!!
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:03 — sam123456Yes, please get rid of the 1,2,3,4 rating scale --- it is the most ridiculous and subjective rating scale that I have ever seen. Everybody gets a 3 and 4’s are only for going above and beyond…whatever that means (it is never clearly described). One other observation (I have boys and girls) is that girls have a far better chance of getting a 4 than boys do. My two oldest kids were so happy to get to middle because now they know exactly what they need to do to get a grade.
change it, please!
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 22:18 — louiselee44Many years ago I was a member of the WCPSS committee that studied the idea of the 1-4 grading system in elementary schools. They ended up voting to pilot the idea (at Powell Elem., I think). I opposed it then, both as a parent and as a former teacher, and I still oppose it. It is very confusing to almost every parent I know, and many teachers hate it. Oh, and don't forget the "student-led conferences" that were started about the same time as the 1-4 grading system. What a joke that was! Do they still do that in elementary schools?
work quality
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 17:25 — turnerk1I hope that they do re-evaluate the grading system in elementary school. At least in my experience a "3" is a grade that is given for a huge range of work and a "4" is almost impossible to get. I will never forget the child I tutored once who was thrilled to get a "3" in math and immediately announced she would get a "4" next quarter, except that was never going to happen. This is a kid who turned in everything on time, worked hard, her work was neat and clearly had taken her a long time. In another grading system she would have been rewarded for her work ethic -- which by the way is the quality that really defines a good student more than anything else. But in the 1-4 system, the quality of the work is not taken into account. It was so dispiriting for her that she could never receive the "top" grade no matter how hard she tried.
Also, for my kids, it was difficult to understand the difference between what it took to get a "3" -- an acceptable grade in elementary school -- and what it took to get an A or B in middle school. It was easy for them to get 3's, but a numerical grading system in which different things were taken into account was harder for them. It made the transition to middle school (which is already difficult) just that much harder.
There are two parts
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 08:42 — Solon77There are two parts to the ES report card - 1. academic proficiency and 2. behavioral.
Academic proficiency standards are clearly spelled out in the 1-4 grading system. If you can do x,y,z then you get this score. As far as credit for working hard, quality of work, ect. this is reflected in the behavioral scores. I believe it is good thing that the evaluation separates the two - otherwise you end up with a kid who gets A's and B's because he/she works, hard, is neat, always on time so the teacher feels compelled to give these grades based on effort - they get to middle school and parents finally find out their kid cannot read or do math.
I know this is late
Mon, 07/18/2011 - 13:53 — turnerk1I know we've moved on from this post, but I had not read the blog for a few days and just wanted to say ...
I know that there is a behavioral component, but that is only on the report card and a child can only get up to a 3 (as I guess you can't really behave above grade level), so it still doesn't solve the problem I have with the 1-4 grading system. The child at the time of the assignment cannot be rewarded for hard work through the grading, and on the report card the behavior grade is never going to be above a 3 either.
grades
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 17:02 — turnerk1My oldest is going to be a senior and for 3rd and 4th grade he was given grades (A-F). They changed to 1-4 when he was in 5th grade.
"return" to letter grades?
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 08:21 — duvalHow can we "return" to something we never had?
In elementary school we use to have CSN: Commendable, Satisfactory and Needs Improvement.
Then it was Commendable Progress, Satisfactory Progress and Needs More Practice.
I do not recall a time when we gave letter grades in elementary school.
I entered the school system in 1970, so if letter grades were ever given in Wake County it was prior to that.
So...
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 12:35 — Bob_SconceGrades are used differently in elementary school than in middle school. In Elementary School, a '3' is supposed to mean "You understand the material" -- there's no equivalent in the A-F scale. I don't know if the elementary system makes sense -- at minimum, I think they need to do a better job of defining the 3*'s and 4's. However, I know that I'm not really qualified to make a judgment as to whether the entire system should be scrapped.
My Elementary School was Y, I & N. Middle school was O, G, S & N. I don't know what it was with all the hippies in the 70's. Probably too much LSD and free love and not enough bathing.
Defining 3 and 4
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 08:23 — Solon77My youngest only a couple of years out of ES would have a cheat sheet attached to her report card. The cheat sheet for Math and Reading tells you exactly what the proficiency levels are for each number 1-4. The ES report card is also two parts - academic and behavioral. I had not problem understanding the 1-4 and believe it is a good system. Perhaps the district needs to do a better job educating the public and teachers.
Yeah....
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 08:41 — Bob_SconceWe got a similar paper. It wasn't all that clear and its application seems very inconsistent among teachers. Some teachers will tell you that they don't give 4's. Others do. What's up with that?
I suspect that 1-4 grading was some idea out of the education ivory tower that WCPSS decided to adopt and, like most ideas straight out of the ivory tower (in every field), when it met the real world, the theory didn work quite how its creator thought it should.
Just because things were
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 10:42 — woodstockJust because things were done one way for a long time is no reason to continue them. I lived a few different places and am close to your age and I never heard of a 1-4 grading system before I moved here. I know that when I was in grade school we got letter grades.
I see no reason for a 1-4 system. Parents don''t understand it and it appears by the many comments here teachers do not either. Almost everyone get 3s, even the kids that consistently go beyond. A 3 ends up covering eveything from what would be a high C to an A.
I am not saying to keep the
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 11:17 — duvalI am not saying to keep the 1-4 system, I am saying we are not going to return to something if we never had it to begin with.
WCPSS did formerly use letter grades in elementary school
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 21:01 — Apexter"I am not saying to keep the 1-4 system, I am saying we are not going to return to something if we never had it to begin with."
WCPSS did use letter grades in elementary school. As you noted, they used C-S-N in the primary grades, but starting around 3rd grade, they had letter grades. I even remember seeing the elementary A and B honor rolls published in the newspaper.
My oldest just graduated high school, and he had letter grades in 3rd(I think) and 4th grade. When he was in 5th grade, WCPSS was in its second year of piloting the 1-2-3-4 grading system. They had already piloted it in the previous year in just a couple of schools, and the parents' protests there had prompted them to add the 3* into the grading scheme. I was very involved in our PTA, and, in theory, we were supposed to be surveyed for our thoughts on the program at the end of the year. Instead of being given the opportunity to state that we really hated it, though, we had some kind of faux survey offered that didn't really offer the chance to express any opposition. (Sort of like the type of the Stephen Colbert gives --- "Do you like it, or do you really, really like it?")
WCPSS put a tremendous
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 18:11 — klanders65WCPSS put a tremendous amount of effort and money into moving to standards based grading. NCLB called for holding kids back at certain grades if they did not score at grade level on EOG. They didn't want parents surprised by learning for the first time that their child was working below grade level, when the EOG scores came in. They wanted something communicated to parents during the school year, regarding what the child had mastered. So, they went to standards based grading.
They paid some huge amount of money to have an online system developed, named eMARC. Elementary school teachers would key in information for each kid, regarding which objectives they had mastered and the degree of mastery. A report could be generated any time for parents or teachers, to show what kids needed help with, what they had mastered, together with links to lessons to help them master them. The report card grades were generated by eMARC. Several schools used it the first couple years to get the bugs out. Then it was expanded to more schools.
Then, with no explanation, they just killed it. They had it developed in house, then just quit using it.
I don't know if this is when they started using Blue Diamond for formative assessment or not. eMARC had the objectives built in, and quizzes to get information on what kids know. It was like they scrapped eMARC and started from scratch using Blue Diamond. Or maybe they just scrapped eMARC after they completed the development and had everyone trained, and Blue Diamond was just some other unrelated thing that they started using coincidently at that time. Does Blue Diamond not help them understand what level the students have mastered the objectives?
I grew up in this system and we did have letter grades...
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 11:59 — midtownmomin 3-5. It was still that way when my older son (in college right now) went through the system also. They only used C,S,N for conduct. In k-2 we used needs improvement, satisfactory and commendable, no letter grades.
Strange... what school did you attend?
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 12:54 — duvalI just cleaned out a storage closet and found my report card from Brooks ES '72, 3rd grade. CSN were used.
Coincidence
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 13:11 — midtownmomHum...I would have been in 5th grade in 72 - and coincidentally - at Brooks lol. I looked to see if I had any old report cards and I didn't from me, but I found my son's from 3rd, 4th and 5th and all the core subjects have letter grades.
Ha~!
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 13:44 — duvalWhat years did your son go to ES?
My daughter started in 2000, so at that time they had gone back to CSN, N for Needs More Practice.
What's old is new again!
Needs more practice - so politically correct.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 16:20 — midtownmomSon went to elementary from 96 to 2001.
You are missing a huge
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 01:06 — klanders65I meant this to reply to jeffery1.
You are missing a huge point. You don't take 4 100 point tests to see if you learned the objectives of the course. Here are some vocabulary words for you: formative, summative.
Students are in a class supposedly because they don't know something and they are there to learn it. Since I am a math teacher, lets use Pythagorean Theorem as an example. A learning objective is that they will know this. There are different levels of "knowing." DPI outlines what is meant by the different levels of knowing. The highest level is being able to recognize when to use it, apply to new situations, etc. (This is off the top of my head. I am referring to Bloom's Taxonomy, or the Revised version that I think they are now using.) The highest level is not getting more than 100% of simple questions correct, as someone suggested in this blog.
The students don't know the Pythagorean Theorem, supposedly. The teacher gives them some homework to build the skills they will need to both work problems and understand the concept. (squaring, taking square roots, classifying triangles, etc.) She gives quizzes to see if they have these skills. This is "formative assessment." If they don't have the skills needed to work problems and don't understand the concepts, then she needs to understand why not and review or teach. She gives homework to give them practice. This is all "formative." Of course they don't know these things on the first day. After she has explained things, she needs to see what they got, so she can explain again or a different way. They need practice, not just listening. So homework is assigned. This is all part of the teaching process. I wouldn't mind if we didn't grade any of this. The kids may all learn at different rates.
The chapter ends next Friday. Some kids may have been slow to start but then a light bulb went off. Other kids may have understood everything the first day, and a light bulb went off then and they totally got it. They may even understand at that highest level. They may find the rote skill practice boring and not contributing anything because they "got it" really quickly and already have really good skills.
On Friday, you give a "summative" test. This is not for feedback so the teacher knows what to reteach, or who needs more practice. This is to judge the kids and decide who had mastered this, and at what level. The test should contain some questions that will tell the teacher who gets this at the highest level.
You do not give 4 summative tests. You give 1. The tests that come before that are "formative." The tell both the teacher and the student what they need more help with. If a kid needs more help, and more practice, or the teacher needs to explain something differently, and this happens successfully, and then the kid gets it and aces the summative test, should you give him a bad grade because he needed extra help or the teacher had to explain a different way? He gets it now, but it isn't as valuable as the kid who got it instantly without needing the teacher to give extra practice or to identify his misconceptions? Even though he "gets it" before the end of the chapter, should he have to retake the course? He got it, but he was kind of slow to get it?
To me, that is insane but it is what we do. You take the kids who got it, but got it more slowly, and average their formative and summative scores together. Then only the A students move on in math. Everyone else retakes what they had last year. (There isn't that much to arithmetic, and unless you take advanced middle school math, you are retaking arithmetic all through middle school.) So, the kids who didn't do an assignment or were slower to understand, but did understand, have to retake the class next year. They go in totally getting it all. The teacher gives homework to practice something they have entirely mastered. They can't bring themselves to do it because it is too boring for them. They have already mastered it. They are labeled lazy, and this might carry over to their work habits. So, they need to be punished...
Thanks, but I don't need
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 02:40 — jeffrey1Thanks, but I don't need your vocabulary words. I am a professional math tutor and tutor everything from pre-algebra through calculus. I am the guy students come to when they complain that they can't learn from their teacher.
The big mistake that you are making is assuming that the only purpose of a grade is a reflection of how well a student has mastered the material at the time the assessment is given. There are many instances where that isn't the case.
Take for example, most science classes - for example middle school science class or a high school biology, chemistry, physics, etc. class. These classes often have labs associated with them, and one way to assess a student's grade is on the quality of their lab notebooks. The keeping of a lab notebook is critical in the realm of science, and there are standard practices in the keeping of a lab notebook. A student may have mastered the material on a science exam, but if that student's lab notebook is lacking, or if it is not turned in, that should have a negative effect on the student's grade. To do otherwise would not prepare a student for a career in the sciences.
Bu let's get back to math. As you are aware, math concepts build on one another. Take the ability to factor quadratic equations in Algebra II. The first unit may be on factoring very simple equations of the form ax^2 + bx + c, where a = 1. Students are taught to find two numbers that will not only multiply to equal the constant term "c", but also add up to equal "b", the coefficient on the x-term. A test is given, and the next unit moves on to equations where a > 1. Students may be introduced to the box method in this unit. Another test is given, and the next unit moves on to equations where a < 0. Subsequent units may include "difference of squares", quadratics "in x^2" or quadratics "in x^3," and eventually the quadratic formula is introduced.
The point is that math concepts build on one another, and what may have been difficult in Unit 1 becomes easier and easier as more units are introduced. In the example above, by the time students are introduced to the quadratic formula, most have mastered the ability to factor simple quadratics. But the grade they receive in the Algebra II class is still based on the assessment they took back in Unit 1, whether or not they have mastered factoring by the end of the course. If student A received scores of 95, 95, 95, and 90 on the 4 units of factoring, I would expect that student to earn a higher grade than student B who received scores of 80, 80, 100, and 100, and has likely mastered the art of factoring.
Now it's the teacher's perogative to assign different weights to different assessments. Most teachers assign less weight to homework assignments, and more weight to mid terms or finals. From the experience of my students, most teachers just want to see that you did the homework and not whether you got the problems correct. IMO, a teacher is justified in giving a student a lower grade if the homework is turned in late, or a zero if the homework is not turned in at all. By assigning greater weight to a mid term or final, the teacher is making an adjustment for those students who perhaps struggled early on, but then mastered the material later. However, that does not imply that early assessments should not count.
The grade should reflect the overall body of work throughout the course. Otherwise, we would only need to assess students and assign grades at the end of the course.
That explains it!!
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 19:37 — paulastam"Jeffery1",
So you're a professional tutor. That is awesome - being in a role where you get to assist others. Nevertheless, based on my experience, "professional tutors" tend to be those that generally cannot secure, or keep full-time roles, as classroom teachers. As a tutor no or little classroom management is necessary and you tend to be dealing with "willing" students that want to learn and have involved parents. I suspect this may be the source of the very conspicuous chip on your shoulder and why you harbor so much bitterness towards public schools. Now I understand the potential root cause of your rabid and somewhat narrow minded support of the GOP's Gang of 5, led by Ronnie M, running WCPSS into the ground.
As an aside your assurances (as written elsewhere in this forum) that YOU know General Tata, an inexperienced educator that generously served our nation in war for many years, will be an excellent "CEO" for WCPSS are unfounded. And I regret to tell you that any assurance from you is not at all inspiring or comforting. Let's summarize some recent experiments with non-educators acting as public school district CEOs: Vallas (a non-educator) left Philly a mess; Rhee (a non-traditional educator - with 2 yrs Teach for America experience) AND Tata left DC schools a mess (no denying this Sir - I look forward to you trying to convince us otherwise!); LA schools hired an Admiral - he left after just a year or two and that district is now more of a MESS; Baltimore has hired a Harvard attorney as their "CEO" and the jury is still out BUT most their schools have been turned into charter schools (which have a mixed record at best if you consider ALL the research and not just single cases of success); Mayor Bloomberg recently appointed a very successful magazine publicist to run NY City's public schools and she lasted two weeks!!!! Oh and then we have Tata in WCPSS: Did NOTHING about the Goldman transfer scandal (don't bite the hand that hired/feeds you!); the General got a Harvard team in to tell us that we have an achievement gap - anybody could tell you this is a nationwide problem and probably explain the root societal causes behind it; he has created high-priced NEW central office positions as he makes cuts elsewhere - cutting many teacher support roles; Tata is a Broad proxy; Tata apparently mandates affirmative action; and so on....
BTW, I am impressed that you have attempted research to query things I have written elsewhere in this forum - I am impressed that you hang on my every word. Unlike you, I do not have excess spare time so I cannot respond to ALL of Woodstock's attacks and yours - some which are remarkably LAME. Frankly, I was more intrigued last night to see why Emily and Brad split on the Bachlorette than further discuss the CEO of De Beers in this forum with you. I do have a life outside this forum unlike Woodie - I worry about him - seriously - he mistakingly thinks that he's the mediator of this forum and LIVES in here - I'm no shrink but I strongly suspect it cannot be healthy for one to spend so much time online - unless it his job to be a GOP attack dog! Although Tedesco was so obsessed with dismantling WCPSS that he quit his job and allowed his home to fall into foreclosure (quite the track record Jeffery1). We have some crazy people making crazy decisions in relation to our schools and kids - that's why we need to get rid of flip flop Ronnie M and install some normalcy. I sometimes wonder if one of those talking cows on the Chik-fil-let ads would make a better chairman than Ronnie M! Imagine: 4 Democrats, 3 Republicans, 1 Tea Party Speaker (Johnny T) and a Chik-fil-let talking cow...could be quite the compromise! Chicken anyone?
Paula, "Independent, Fair & Speaking Up for MY Kids."
Ok...
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 00:18 — Bob_SconceJeffrey makes a good argument about the purpose of grading, complete with examples from the classroom. Here's an outline of your rebuttal:
Paragraph 1: Personal attack, suggesting that he's mad at the world because he's not a classroom teacher and that anger is why he supports the board majority.
Paragraph 2: Criticism of Supt. Tata and the general idea of having people without teaching degrees heading up school systems.
Paragraph 3: Some sort of mix of criticism of Jeffrey, Woodstock and Tedesco, then some bizarre Chik-fil-let reference.
How's that IFASUMK thing going? Frankly, your talking points are getting boring. If you read the rest of the posts, you'll note that they're generally about the topic of the blog post.
Sometimes the truth hurts "Bob"
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 18:38 — paulastamPaula, "Independent, Fair & Speaking Up for MY Kids."
Jeff doesn't visit this blog
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 21:07 — CaryCurmudgeonJeff doesn't visit this blog too often, so I'll fill you in. He has a full-time job, the tutoring is spare time (when he is not volunteering to coach baseball teams). Jeff has spent years advocating for a better school system, and has always been a strong supporter of public education. I don't kind myself that every school reformer places a high value on the public school system, but you're barking up the wrong tree with Jeffry1.
Embellishing one's true role...
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 22:51 — paulastamJeffery1's self-description in a previous posting was a bit more elaborate than what you described CaryC: "part-time tutor in spare time". I have tutored and babysat over the years, but I would not publicly describe or refer to myself as having been a "professional babysitter" or "professional tutor" yet Jeffery1 apparently did just that.
If indeed true, that is wonderful that Jeffery1 is a supporter of public schools. However, I think folks can still disagree (purpose of this forum, right?) as to who is best to protect and improve public education on a local level. Jeffery1 does not hesitate to rush to judgment about me or my "beliefs" and there is definitely ample room for contention or debate that the GOP's Gang of 5, led by flip flop Ronnie M, care for public education. Hence my willingness to see Jeffery1 as anything but a public school supporter at this time. Perhaps I'll learn differently reading his future postings and/or attacks on me...
Thanks for giving me a wider context though...I think.
Paula, "Independent, Fair & Speaking Up for MY Kids."
So I've been away for a few
Thu, 07/14/2011 - 04:04 — jeffrey1So I've been away for a few days.
First, thanks to CC for his kind comments. Paula, I'm sorry that you have to jump to so many incorrect conclusions about me. If you would like to know more, just ask.
I am a self-employed computer software consultant. I have been running my own business since 1989. I really enjoy working with kids. For the past 10 years, I have been tutoring math, mostly high school math, everything from pre-algebra to calculus. Not because I couldn't "cut it" in the classroom, but because it is something that I enjoy doing outside of my normal work responsibilities. I have been very successful as a math tutor, and most of my clients come to me through "word of mouth." I do refer to myself as a professional math tutor, because frankly, my success has earned me the right to call myself a professional. In fact, if you are ever in need of a math tutor, I would like to offer you a complimentary session - then you can decide for yourself whether or not I am a professional.
As CC mentioned, baseball is another passion of mine. Along with three others, I am on the board of directors of the Wake County Club Baseball League, which was formed to bring the sport of baseball to middle schools in Wake County. WCPSS only supports baseball in a handful of middle schools in Wake County. Prior to our league, the majority of middle schools in Wake County did not have any opportunities for kids to play baseball. Our league has quickly become the premier league for middle school baseball. We currently have 38 teams, and each year we add additional teams, as schools see that we offer a much better product that WCPSS. I run the website for the league, which can be found at www.wakecountyclubbaseball.com. In addition to being a director, I am also the head coach at Salem Middle School. I have been involved with the league for the past 5 years, and I do it because I love working with kids. Whether it's helping a student with half angle trig identities, or teaching a hitter to hit to the opposite field, I enjoy watching young kids succeed.
I have also supported public schools over the years. When my 1st grade son was yanked out of his local neighborhood school, and reassigned to a school inside the beltline (because that school needed more "middle income" kids), I did not do, as many of my neighbors did, look towards private schools, charter schools, or magnet schools. We enrolled in the high poverty school (the school was considered high poverty at the time relative to all schools in WCPSS, but would probably be considered average today), and my wife served two years as PTA president. We gave our time and our money to the school. We volunteered in classrooms, bought lunches and treats for ED kids, participated in food drives for those in need, and helped out wherever we were asked. We gave thousands of dollars to the school while my two kids were enrolled there.
It is because of that reassignment that I became involved in school assignment reform. I am a big proponent of stability, especially emotional stability. My son suffered a great deal when he was uprooted from all of his friends, and reassigned to a high poverty school. He had a great deal of difficulty adjusting to the new school. My daughter was "asked" to skip 1st grade because the school said they had nothing to offer her if she remained in 1st grade (she knew her ABC's and could count to 100, apparently a lot more than the rest of her class knew). We struggled with that decision, but ultimately decided to skip 1st grade, even though it meant another year of difficult emotional adjustment. We had some experiences in that school that we weren't quite prepared for, including the brother of a classmate being stabbed, a sexual assault by a 4th grader on the school bus, and a principal that walked out in the middle of a school year, rather than be fired because of covering up the assault of a student by a teacher. The education was mediocre at best, and my wife and I did everything we could to supplement that education at home. Both kids returned to the local neighborhood school, Salem Middle, for middle school, and they both thrived there. Both are now enrolled at Apex High, and doing well.
Paula, I don't rush to judgement about your beliefs. However, I am critical of you because of your excessive rhetoric, with little or no evidence to back it up. You lost some serious credibility over your posting of 2012 F&R figures, even though no such data exists. Your claim that Tata's assistant is paid 3-4 times that of other clerical assistants is also baseless. You were silent when asked to back up your claim that the board is not looking out for the best of interests of all children. Your posts often ramble on about this and that, and fail to stay on message.
You've received some serious criticism from just about every regular poster here, and you seem to have garnered the support of just two others on this board (Virginia Dare I can understand, but I have no idea why Harry Moncelle backs you). You've even managed to turn off Bob Sconce - not easy to do because the guy is so darn nice to everyone!
Paula, this thread was a discussion of letter grades, but you managed to do what you do so often, and that is change the topic to something else - in this case, whether or not I support public schools. I'll stack my record up against yours any day Paula. Hopefully you see that now, and we can focus future discussion on the issues at hand.
Just another point for you
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 17:40 — CaryCurmudgeonJust another point for you to consider, you said:
So you're a professional tutor. That is awesome - being in a role where you get to assist others. Nevertheless, based on my experience, "professional tutors" tend to be those that generally cannot secure, or keep full-time roles, as classroom teachers
There are thousands of good teachers out there who have lost their jobs (I mean nationwide, not just here where the dreaded Republicans control the legislature). Some of these people turn to tutoring as a source of income, to help them pay their bills. Characterizing tutors as workers who can't make the grade is demeaning to these teachers.
Also, please consider what Bob Sconce posted. When you keep regurgitating the same handful of talking points in every post, people will quickly tune you out.
Tutors
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 22:36 — lferreriI don't know Jeff but some of the best teachers I've run across are tutors.
So true...
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 23:00 — paulastam...excellent teachers can also be excellent part-time tutors! Likewise, I'm certain that there are great tutors that are NOT teachers, but as I stated previously, and may have not made entirely clear, there are some full-time (professional) tutors that cannot cut it in a regular classroom with 24-33 challenging kids so tutoring 1-5 motivated kids, with supportive and involved parents, is a more viable option/"out" for them.
Paula, "Independent, Fair & Speaking Up for MY Kids."
LOL Wow, that is a truly and
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 19:48 — woodstockLOL Wow, that is a truly and inspired post. Once gain, great job! You are a great spokesperson for the Democrat Party; you really personify who they are. I can see why the extreme left-wing forum participants here are so glad to have you on board.
You prove my point Woodstock...
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 20:03 — paulastamDear Woodstock,
Your ability to respond to my postings in just a couple of minutes or so everytime is of concern to me. Yes I disagree with, and cannot decipher, most of the nonsense and borderline "abuse" that you write in this forum, but I do worry about you. Seriously, take a timeout to catch your breath and not be so bitter!
Paula, "Independent, Fair & Speaking Up for MY Kids."
Dear Imposter, Ahh... I
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 20:28 — woodstockDear Imposter,
Ahh... I appreciate your concern, but please don't worry about me. I am fine. And now, I have you to look out after my welfare, so things are really good. I will certainly consider your advice.
I am learning so much from you... thanks for all you do. Thanks for providing a glimpse into the liberal/Democrat mind that we don't offen get to see. Very revealing.
Grades
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 08:55 — lferreriI taught college classes for twenty five years. From the discussion on this blog, it sounds as if a great percentage of the grade being given is not for mastery of the content. While I always gave a small percentage of credit for homework and class participation to encourage students to practice doing the problems (I taught math-based classes where problems predominate) and to ask questions, I believe that the vast majority of a grade should be based on "how well a student has mastered the material at the time the assessment is given." If I had given great weight to other factors, I probably would have provided a stronger incentive to turn in homework, ask questions in class, etc. But I would have had students pass my class who had not mastered the material. I can understand that college students are more mature than younger children and therefore teachers might want to give a bit more weight to encouraging good habits like doing homework and organizing notes. However, if those factors begin to swamp the assessment of actual mastery of the subject, I think we are doing a disservice to the students.
I taught sequential classes so I frequently saw my students for more than one semester. I could see how difficult it was for a student who had passed a previous class but not mastered the material. So I feel strongly about the need for grades to indicate level of mastery.
As for the issue of skills building on each other, I agree with you. Assessments of early skills might not reflect ultimate mastery of the skill yet we still use the early assessment as part of the grade. That's one reason my classes always counted the final grade more heavily than other tests. No grading system is perfect. I've heard of faculty who weighted earlier tests less than later tests because of this issue. But it's difficult to strike the right balance in this. Nonetheless, I still think that the bottom line is that a grade should have as a goal the indication of the level of mastery of the content and skills a course is designed to cover.
You got it again pstam
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 20:49 — newsdayPrickett's first attempt at putting out an opinion or thought and she performs true to self. Those blinders fit her well.
Inconsistency
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 19:51 — paulastamSo Ms. Prickett, will DPI be switching EOG profiency levels to some kind of an Alpha system? For what it is worth, warts and all, at least the current WCPSS K-5 grading system (1-4) aligns with the state's 3rd-8th grade EOG grading/proficiency system (1-4).
Paula, "Independent, Fair & Speaking Up for MY Kids."
about time to get away from this stupid 1-4 junk
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 10:17 — mnordbergI sure hope they decide to go back to letter grades in elementary school based on some percentage = A, B,C,D. It makes no sense the way they do it today (especially in math) because somebody getting 10 out of 10 questions right and somebody getting 8/10 right both get a 3 since getting a 4 apparently requires more than 100% accuracy. I think it ends up meaning that the 3 range ends up having people that really should have received 4 get 3s and then those that should get 3s get 3s. Hence you end up with a wide range of capabilities entering middle school in that 3 range. Or if they go back and just say 4 = A, 3 = B, 2 = C, 1 = D then that is fine but right now it is more like 3=A, B, 2= C, 1 = D.
Many of my kids teachers
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 11:34 — DrActualFactualMany of my kids teachers were quite puzzled by the 1-4 grading system (most were rookies new to Wake Co.) so that leads to a disadvantage where teachers didn't understand what quality of work differentiates a 3 from a 4 so they just decided to never give out 4's (to any kids). Then when you combine schools to move kids up from ES to MS guess what, the teachers and schools that actually gave out 4's seemed to get better placement.....go figure. Ms Prickett gets an A+++ for this suggestion, long overdue.
Hmm...
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 12:20 — Bob_SconceMy biggest problem with the 1-4 system has been that teachers appear to be wildly inconsistent in handing out 4's - some don't give them at all. That's really discouraging to a goal-oriented kid. The district's standards appear to be mushy as well.
If the educators think that the 1-4 system makes sense, then I'm inclined to defer to them. But, it's clear that the standards for each of those 5 grades (including the '3*') need to be clarified to everybody -- teachers, students and parents. It should not be possible for a kid to bring home a graded assignment where a reasonably educated parent can't figure out why the assignment received the grade it did.
Not giving zeros
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 09:45 — NotObama2012Why would you not give a child a zero if they did not do the work? How are you teaching them that they are responsible for the work and holding them accountable? If you do not give the child the responsibility of doing his work AND making sure it gets turned in on time, all you are teaching the child is that it doesn't matter what the deadline is they can turn it in whenever. To decide to not give students zeros would be a poor decision on the part of the administration.
Spartan approach...
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 20:02 — paulastamYou give a smart and typically hardworking student a zero for one missed or late assignment and an A can suddenly be reduced to a C for an entire quarter's work owed to using the mean to calculate the student's overall grade. Perhaps the median or mode is the better central tendency to use OR come up with a grading system that encourages students to not be late turning in an assignment BUT does not severely punish them for one simple mistake. Also, if you give a student that struggles, but wants to do well, one zero grade it may mean they may have NO chance of passing the quarter or semester - their self-esteem and desire to learn may be seriously harmed. "NotObama2012", our school buildings are not army barracks even though a war general (CEO Tata) does run our public schools.
Paula, "Independent, Fair & Speaking Up for MY Kids."
Grades should reflect
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 10:12 — woodstockGrades should reflect knowledge/mastery/achievement. I agree to some extent that having things done on time is important, but if work is turned in late the students still learned something, so a grade of zero reflects something other than knowledge. Sometimes homework is not even graded for correctness, merely that it is turned in. What does that teach students?
Slow path to rehabilitation...
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 19:43 — paulastamWoodie,
I'm impressed Sir. We all actually got an entire paragraph out of you in which you did not call anyone a "troll", "stupid", "idiot", "irrationale", "ignorant", etc. Keep it up... :)
Paula, "Independent, Fair & Speaking Up for MY Kids."
I am intriqued that
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 20:04 — woodstockI am intriqued that you pay so close attention to my every post. However, if you had been posting for more than a few days, you really wouldn't be so impressed.
WEll...
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 10:10 — Bob_SconceThat depends on what you think the grade means -- does it mean that you've mastered the material, or does it mean that you've turned in all the homework on time? It is quite possible to master the material but do a half-baked job on assignments -- that's especially true when ADD kids are given homework assignments with lots of repetition.
I'm not convinced that the "If you let them get away with not doing every homework assignment in middle school, then they won't meet their deadlines in their first job either" view is actually correct.
In my view, there are two good reasons for giving 0's for not turning in homework on time: First, the homework is an assessment of a student's ability; if they don't turn it in, then it might be reasonable to assume that they don't have the ability. Second, chaos control--if you don't take off points for being late, then there's no disadvantage to being late, which means that homework just gets turned in whenever, and that's impossible for a teacher to manage.
But Even If You Think There Is Reason
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 19:07 — chaboardto penalize not turning something in, it is absurd to make the penalty so severe that it is many, many times worse than outright failure. The problem is mathematical - on a 7 point grade scale the difference between perfection and failing is only 29 points (71 is an F while 100 is an A), yet the difference between failure on the substance and the penalty can be 71 points (71 to 0). That's just NUTS and makes for nonsensical results when you compute averages. Three failing scores can beat two perfect hundreds and one missed assignment, for example.
Zeros would make more sense if 35 were perfect....they are mathematical nonsense on a 7pt-100 max scale.
Some schools in WCPSS
Mon, 07/11/2011 - 22:41 — klanders65Some schools in WCPSS already have no zero policies and give 70 points when work is not turned in. Other schools do not have this policy. At a no-zero high school, the kid with two perfects and a missed assignment has a 90 average, and at a school that gives zeros he has a 66 average. So, B vs. F for same work depending on which high school. The NC Virtual School does not give zeros for the reason you state above.
The homework should not be assessing whether students have mastered the material. That would be the test at the end. The homework should help the student learn the material. If it has to be worth something so the kids will take it seriously, then make it worth some points. But if the grades do not reflect what kids have mastered by the end, then how could they be used for making placement decisions? If a kid can't do a homework assignment because he doesn't understand the concepts at the beginning of a chapter, and gets a bad grade or zero, then finally understands it all by the end and aces the final exam for the chapter, should you average his first zero with his final A and fail him? Then, place him in a class for kids who didn't get it and make him redo all the work next year? If a teacher gives countless meaningless assignments to build "work ethic" and kids who have totally mastered the material don't do it all, should they be tracked low as punishment for not doing the "work ethic" assignments even if they earned As on all the tests and have totally mastered all the work? I think a lot of this goes on. This is why teachers do not like Standards Based grading. They have to communicate who has mastered the material. They don't want to communicate that and when some kids who have bad work ethics have mastered the material. They want those kids to be punished by being tracked low.