I figured you'd want to have your own forum to shoot it out over the recent dueling articles on socioeconomic diversity.
Wake received extensive play in an article in Sunday's New York Times Magazine that looked at how assigning students by income can be the next way to legally integrate schools.
The Times article provoked a sharp response in the National Review.
"Wake County adopted class-based integration with the hard-nosed goal of raising test scores," said the Times Magazine article. "The strategy was simple: no poor schools, no bad schools. And indeed, the district has posted striking improvements in the test scores of black and low-income students."
"Whatever the exact answer, there is some support for the view that schools can handle a substantial fraction of poor students without sacrificing performance," writes Emily Bazelon, the author and a senior editor at Slate later in the Times article. "In Wake County, test scores of middle-class students have risen since instituting income-based integration.
The response in the National Review doesn't mention Wake by name. But the author, Liam Julian, associate writer and editor at the Thomas B. Fordham Institute and a research fellow at Stanford’s Hoover Institution, targeted Wake in an article he wrote in 2007.
Comments
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last sentence
Tue, 04/28/2009 - 08:45 — umakatricklast sentence is right on the money. They would rather believe the fawning NYT praise. Then they can easily ignore the legitimate complaints from people who live here! university online | accredited degree
Bigwinnie - A freebee you might like
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 08:22 — Voice_of_Reason_Way off topic warning --- I came across this software for organizing web articles, etc. and other clip-its and it is really good. And free too ! I've been using it for the last three months. You seem to be someone who can use it. Check it out --- Evernote.com.
cool, thanks (are you
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 08:47 — bigwinniecool, thanks (are you insuating that I find and post too many articles!? LOL :+)
i love free! thanks so much
No Way - You are the Matt Drudge of N&O WakeEd Blog !
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 09:08 — Voice_of_Reason_Keep the articles coming, especially since the Blog has hot links also. I think you can enhance your link posts with a brief topic description on the link. This might trigger the interest of some that don't read all of them. Still think you should work on a separate web site.
links also.
Tue, 04/28/2009 - 08:07 — umakatricklinks also. I think you can enhance your link posts with a brief topic
description on the link. This online masters degree might trigger the Doctorate Degree Online interest of some that
don't read all of them. Still think you should work on a separate web
site. online distance education
Ack, don't people hate Matt
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 09:12 — bigwinnieAck, don't people hate Matt Drudge??
anyway, it doesn't look as if Evernote is available on VISTA which is wht I (unfortunately) have right now....so I'll continue my cut-n-paste method, but will try to remember to post a description line as well, maybe that might help?
HA, if only I knew how, I'd think about it.....not that computer savvy.....
Check again
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 12:25 — Voice_of_Reason_I have it on Vista 64-bit and it works fine, it also has web backup that's free, so it is portable.
Matt Drudge mainly sorts through articles that mainly support his point of view. He rarely has his own. That is what you do also when you post links, isn't it. The Left doesn't like Drudge because he makes information that opposes their point of view easily accessable. He does try to remain fair and has links to left-wing web sites that have some credibility.
ok, I'll cehck again...I
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 13:45 — bigwinnieok, I'll cehck again...I *told* you I wasn't that computer savvy!
well I like to put "both" sides out there, and since most articles cited tend to be "pro-WCPSS" I just want to present the other side.....much to many peoples' dismay (esp.lately)!
I have my "own" POV of course, but that doesn't matter merely a drip (no pun intended) in the ocean of WCPSS, so they don't care, but if MANY people start to have a certain POV, then maybe we'll get somewhere.....
How 'bout this
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 09:55 — Dadof3Here's a more neutral appellation: 'the Wikipedia of WCPSS"
hey that's pretty good,
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 11:39 — bigwinniehey that's pretty good, better than what the spouse calls it anyway!
DrudgeReport
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 11:58 — Dadof3Sure people hate Matt, no good deed goes unpunished. Most people who take a stand, left or right, are hated, a vile emotion, by the way.
Churchill: "You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life."
Interesting post
Fri, 07/25/2008 - 20:42 — pmCheck this out. The post itself is only so so, but you will find some interesting reading.
yeah and here is more and
Sat, 07/26/2008 - 07:12 — bigwinnieyeah and here is more and more articles
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_07/014160.php
I am sick to death of these high brow "philosophers" touting a system they know NOTHING about except what they READ and we all know that WCPSS can look good on PAPER, although latest test scores are making that debatable as well.
I try to post on all these places and put the Wake County living-with-this-$H**, version out there, none of them I noticed talked about the law suit, OR the dropping test scores, OR the fact that Wake County really didn't fare any better than the WHOLE of NC in closing achievment gaps, and they sure spent a damn sight more on diesel didn't they?
what amazes me
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 17:41 — Forget_not_the_...Yes our black children certainly can read much better than they could in the past but gracious they sure can't add and subtract or make change for those liberal carpetbaggers when they come south to pat us on the back for being such good little southern grit-mouthed spreaders of diversity at the expense of education of each individual child.
What is interesting is the cost this has been to all students:
In 2001-02 90.4% of students passed Math EOG's
In 2006-07 it is a dismal 75.3% of the county's students....
and this year it is worse.....
I don't care what color, design or texture our students are...just educate them and quit feeding your ego WCPSS
I just wonder if the population the NYT covers does a grand job educating minority populations????
ha! a lot of their
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 18:16 — bigwinnieha! a lot of their miniority population has already moved here!
seen all those NY, NJ license plates zipping around?
lol
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 17:44 — Forget_not_the_...YES bigwinnie...used to be when i heard a northern accent, I would ask, "Where are you from"
now
when I hear I southern accent, I ask, "Where are you from????????"
Just returned from NYC today and as I saw New Yorkers read their local paper, I wanted grab them, shake them and scream, "Lies, lies, lies....it is all lies....."
however i would like to state that my closest friends are from north of the Mason dixon however.....
FNTC, it is so true, I
Mon, 07/28/2008 - 18:01 — bigwinnieFNTC, it is so true, I *only* know about five "true" southerners and I've been here over a decade! I hear more Jersey/Long Islande accents than anything else anymore!
I swear I didn't bring them (well only my mom! :+)
Debunked Before
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 11:03 — gstelmackThese statements have been debunked before. As pointed out the LAST time the NYT went through this, NC scores AS A WHOLE rose at about the same rate, pointing to a STATE change, not a COUNTY change. Wake County has done no better or worse than the rest of the state, and if anything is beginning to show declining scores.
the bottom line is children
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 09:58 — Forget_not_the_...The NYT is useful for theater and book reviews but give me the News and Observer any day!!!!
The NYT failed to note that although our black students are great readers, only 48.5% passed both the reading and math tests. Our economically disadvantaged performed at 48.1% and our students with disabilities scored at 42.9% on NCLB. NYT certainly picked one small statistic to fit their needs.
The bottom line is that only 24% of our schools passed NCLB requirements--that means that some "minority" at these schools was not "making the grade".
This minority subgroup translates into individual children who are falling short academically.
In the diversity shell game, WCPSS has lost the ability to educate the individual child. This is what I feel is the ultimate discrimination.
Thank you News and Observer for your coverage (HUI I mean you) and this forum...
Value of socioeconomic diversity
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 09:16 — Ten years in Cary (not verified)I think the NY Times article was fair-- it cited specific improvements based on socioeconomic diversity, pointed out differences from other racially-based approaches, and pointed out the risks associated with desegregating schools. It also said that what works in one community may not work in another -- based on a range of reasons.
Wake County being mentioned positively in a national publication is a good thing -- would you really rather read a national publication pointing out the perceived failings of the community where you live?
And it's clear that the National Review has it's own agenda that is very different than the approach taken by the New York Times.
Hmmm
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 12:38 — Bob_SconceIt's a limited "good thing" -- it improves national perception of the area, which means that we're slightly more likely to attract good jobs and investment.
But, when it leads to erroneous conclusions or motivates people to continue flawed policies, then it's a bad thing.
National Review is decidedly a conservative periodical. The New York Times is decidedly a liberal periodical. One just pretends not to be.
SAT
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 08:10 — shank56AL,
So what have you done to advocate for your daughter in the classroom. Met with the teacher and then the principal?
Your son- not all students test well. EVERYONE I know , public and private, enroll their kids in an SAT review course or hires someone to focus on the weakness. EVERYONE , that is who makes education and a "good college" a prioriity.
What have you done to help bolster the SAT score? Like it or not, it is a game to be played nationwide.
Describe the schools you reference as "extremely competitive" colleges .
How Will We Recognize Too Much Diversity?
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 09:43 — al_in_garnerShank 5 – 6 or C F or whomever?:
Of the four core Track Two 7th / 8th Grade teachers, three are new to the school AND to Year Round (TX, MI andKinston , NC
This is the same kid that two years ago, when asked what she was doing in her 5th Grade AG English class, told her Mom and I that she was helping teach Hector English and Hector was helping her learn Spanish. A child’s way of describing her situation. By the way, the Spanish II class for 7th Grade has been cut at North Garner Middle.
$900 to Kaplan for a months worth of prep to get a 3.65 (4.25 weighted) kid up to 1,700. He will be an Engineer (Materials Science) – NCSU College of Engineering, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech are on his list. Since you asked, what exactly does this indicate to you?
Adios
Thank you
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 10:12 — Bob_SconceAl --
You've shown another problem with YR schools -- the impact on differentiated services. There are probably only enough students to fill two classes of advanced language arts, but those students are distributed across 4 tracks. So, rather than having a traditional calendar with 2 Advanced Language Arts, there's a YR calendar with none.
New York Times vs. National Review
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 08:03 — Voice_of_Reason_The credibility and flagrant liberal bias of the New York Times make what they print these days not worth the environmental impact of waste paper. National Review on the other hand has been a credible and trusted publication--- Who should you trust for the truth? The figures can easily be checked and for some reason it appears National Review is telling the truth...hummm. If NYT is correct, where are the results today WCPSS? Why isn't Wake County F&Rs doing better than other high F&R populations in the state? Go ahead and stick your head in the sand BoE. Dr. Burns will tell you all day you are doing a great job and the lack of funds is the only problem you have. What does he have to lose? He has a vested interest to himself to make only the best figures be spun in the best light to come out. You eat the propaganda from them (WCPSS) like a starving dog, accept their scewed results like some look at the bible -- what will it take?, a revolution, another Boston Tea Party? At least open your ears to the other side of the argument and allow real debate, not just trust an ideology most of you have eaten...hook,line, and sinker. Do you really think WCPSS's staff will ever on their own admit their faults? Do you think that Dr. Burns and other administrators really would hurt their image? WCPSS is a sterling example of why check & balances are required in bureaucracies. BoE's oversight is totally inadequate because of the "rose colored glasses" they wear called ideology. Only one member has the guts to question and he is regarded as a "looney" by most (except the parents).
Looking for it
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 08:03 — pm...for some reason...
What reason would that be?
Is this correct?
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 00:42 — pmFrom the Times Article:
in 1995, only 40 percent of the black students in Wake County in the third through eighth grades scored at grade level in state reading tests; by last year, the rate had almost doubled, to 82.5 percent.
Interesting to note that climbing from 40% to 82.5% is not almost doubling, it is more than doubling; an error by the Times.
Wake County’s numbers improve as students get older: 92 percent of all eighth graders read at or above grade level, including about 85 percent of black students and about 80 percent of low-income students.
So, are these numbers that are quoted in the article correct? I don't have anything that goes back that far.
Also, would like to comment to Mr. Sconce:
Compare, e.g., Wakefield Elementary with Wilburn: 36% at Wakefield v. 41.5% at Wilburn.
I am not exactly sure of the assignments across the county, but, can I ask why you choose to compare these two schools? Are they related? Are students from one being bussed to another?
Yes
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 09:36 — Bob_SconceThe district chose to reassign two nodes of high-F&R kids from Wilburn to Wakefield in the '07-'08 school year. Since my kids go to Wakefield, it's the example I'm most familiar with.
The Time's numbers seem fishy -- according to the NC Report Cards site, only 48.5% of both 3-5 and 6-8 black kids in Wake County passed their EOGs last year. That's a far cry from 80%.
Note also that the Times has a causation problem -- even if the
performance of black kids did double, they don't have any evidence that
the doubling resulting from the assignment plan. At least some of that
improvement probably comes from middle-class black families moving into
the area.
I see
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 12:30 — pmit's the example I'm most familiar with.
Not only are
you familiar with these two schools, but it seems a very good example.
And yes, looking at the numbers of those two schools, Wakefield does
not do a better job at attaining higher scores for ED kids.
according to the NC Report Cards site, only 48.5% of both 3-5 and 6-8
black kids in Wake County passed their EOGs last year. That's a far
cry from 80%.
I
think that the two statistics are differant. In the Times story, they
are using the % that scored at grade level for reading only. The NC
Report cards are reporting the % that pass BOTH reading and math.
the Times has a causation problem
I
expect that to a degree, you are right. Further, before I put any
weight into the numbers, I wanted to see if they were right........The
NY Times does have an issue of impartiality after all.
Nothing left to debate, WCPSS is a failure
Tue, 07/22/2008 - 20:31 — Kent Misegades (not verified)Keung, thanks for the tip, but the source of the pro-WCPSS article, NY Times, is good only to line a bird cage. Your latest articles on the continued slide in AYP and high school graduation rates gives further proof that Wake's attempt to educate through osmosis is a miserable and costly failure. There is nothing left to debate except whether private school or home school is the better alternative for parents in Wake County who are really interested in their kids' futures. The only positive about Wake government schools is BOE member Ron Margiotta and the many good teachers trapped in a miserable system.
Debate as you will at an
Tue, 07/22/2008 - 19:45 — al_in_garnerDebate as you will at an elevated, high-brow level on a national scale. But y’all should ask the parents of AG students, who are inside Wake County Public School System and down in the trenches, what they deal with every day within this cluster fracas – the game within this cruel game.
My AG 7th Grader has been immersed in the “dumb class” in Language Arts at North Garner Middle School. Same teaching content, but different tests. She has no home work and is not being “challenged”. Where is she going? I believe she is being dumbed down.
My son is top 5% at Southeast Raleigh High, yet has difficulty scoring above 1,700 on the new SAT. A’s and B’s in WCPSS English, yet just over 500 on Critical Reading. Tops in NC and yet just qualified enough to enter extremely competitive colleges.
Wake County has been chosen as the experimental diversity model battle field. Justice Kennedy straddled the socioeconomic fence. I can’t afford to allow my children to live in his mistake.
Atlas Shrugged
Pfft...
Tue, 07/22/2008 - 19:15 — Bob_SconceI don't see it. More schools this year failed to make AYP than in previous years. Poor students bussed into other schools appear to be doing worse than their ex-classmates at their previous schools. Compare, e.g., Wakefield Elementary with Wilburn: 36% at Wakefield v. 41.5% at Wilburn.
I don't have historical EOG passing rates handy, but my recollection is that passing rates have actually dropped in the past several years.
Unfortunately, this sort of misguided popular press is only going to make the administration think it's doing the right thing.
They love the fawning NYT coverage
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 07:28 — fiestamomBob,
Unfortunately, your last sentence is right on the money. They would rather believe the fawning NYT praise. Then they can easily ignore the legitimate complaints from people who live here!
just like all those others
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 07:42 — bigwinniejust like all those others fawning accolades...maybe they'll get themselves a book deal now......it's all smoke and mirrors.