Would you be wiling to send Wake County elementary students to the bus stop before 7 a.m. in order to flip schedules around to start high schools later in the day?
School transportation officials presented a model last week of what things could look like if high schools were to start after 9 a.m. But the model would involve flipping around the three-tier bus system so that some elementary schools start at 7:25 a.m.
It's not an option that most school board members are considering, at least for this fall. Whether there's interest down the road remains to be seen.
Wake operates a three-tier bus system, meaning the majority of Wake's 900 buses run multiple routes in the morning and afternoon to save money. Most high schools are now on the first tier with most elementary schools on the third tier.
For years, national researchers have argued that teens need more sleep, something that's hard to get when most high schools in Wake now start at 7:25 a.m.
Current and past school boards have batted around the idea of inverting the tiers for years without much actual change. But last week, administrators gave an example of how it could work.
High schools could move to the third tier to operate from 9:15 a.m. to 4:08 p.m But because of the tier system, some elementary schools would need to move to the first tier and operate from 7:25 a.m. to 1:55 p.m.
This tier inversion would be possible if the school board came up with the $748,000 to hire 25 new bus drivers.
If Wake came up with the $748,000, the idea has been to put schools back on the 2008-09 bell schedules that were used before changes were made this school year to handle the Wednesday early dismissals. But administrators said the board could also flip the tiers with that same amount.
School board member Deborah Prickett was all for flipping the tiers to start high school later.
But school board vice chairwoman Debra Goldman said she's concerned about the impact the later times would have on afternoon jobs for teenagers.
Bob Snidemiller, Wake's senior director for transportation, said the board would also have to weigh the impact on athletic schedules if high schools ended later in the day.
Goldman said she's hoping that once Wake goes to community assignment zones that they might be able to compress school schedules into two tiers.
Click here for the handout from last week's committee of the whole meeting.
The blue sheet is the schedule that could be used for 2010-11 if the money is found to hire the 25 new bus drivers.
The pink sheets show what would have to be done to elementary school schedules to move the first tier high schools to the third tier. While not included in the handout, staff said they also developed models showing what would happen if they moved second tier high schools that now start around 8 a.m. to the third tier.
The green sheet shows how Wendell and Zebulon elementary schools were shifted to the first tier this school year to allow East Wake High to start later.
The white bell schedule sheet shows what's being recommended by staff for 2010-11. It would start most elementary schools at 9:30 a.m. this fall.
The final sheet in the handout shows how Transportation cut out the $748,000 to save money for the coming fiscal year, leading to the recommended bell schedule.
Comments
Has the School Board done their homework???
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 10:36 — louiselee44IF you're looking at academic performance, the information in the links I listed (see "ONLY FYI") is pretty conclusive. I understand about all of the other factors as well. Keung - could a reporter get in touch with the folks in Guilford? I'm from there, and I know my 17 year-old nephew, who is quite active in multiple sports and in band, starts at 8:40 and gets out at 3:40. They practice, have games, etc. after school, and plenty of his friends work. I'll bet it all boils down to $$ for enough buses.
Guilford
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 14:59 — bnartistJudge Manning, who presides over the on-going Leandro court case, called a hearing that will focus on low-performing elementary and middle schools in three urban school systems: Forsythe, Guilford and Durham. The hearing is set for Tuesday, May 4. It will begin at 10 AM in Courtroom 5A of the Wake County Courthouse.
- http://www.ncforum.org
Guilford County Schools had 10 of North Carolina's 75 low-performing schools in 2009: Andrews, Dudley and Eastern Guilford high schools; Hairston Middle School; and Fairview, Gillespie Park, Hampton, Montlieu Math and Science Academy, Oak Hill and Parkview Village elementary schools. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools, which has almost twice as many students as Guilford County Schools, has only four low-performing schools, and Wake County Public School System, the largest school system in the state and also almost twice the size of Guilford County Schools, has none.
- http://greensboro.rhinotimes.com
yep
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 20:14 — louiselee44And yet...
Greensboro, NC -- During the 2008-09 school year, three of the district’s high schools graduated 100 percent of students. Weaver Academy, The Middle College at GTCC - Jamestown and The Early College at Guilford are three of only seven schools statewide to accomplish a 100 percent graduation rate. These schools are all part of the district’s magnet/choice schools program.
Northwest High also topped the charts. The school’s graduation rate is one of the top two for schools with 500 or more graduating seniors.
Overall, the 2008-09 graduation rate for Guilford County Schools (GCS) was 79.9 percent, compared to the statewide rate of 71.7 percent. The State Board of Education recognized GCS, along with other districts across the state, at a luncheon Tuesday.
Yet, we digress - I was only curious about how they make their bell schedule work.
The Northwest HS graduation
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 21:07 — danofncThe Northwest HS graduation rate is an achievement, and I suppose the other 3 are as well, even though those three schools have about 600 students....total.
Those three schools are all application-only with no base, and only high-achieving students get in. It's really not that big of a shock that they had a 100% graduation rate.
So...
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 22:30 — Bob_SconceDo they get federal magnet money?
Guilford got 1.5M in 2007
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 08:38 — jenmanGuilford got 1.5M in 2007 (the last year they gave out awards). Not sure which schools this was for, but it has to be for new magnet schools or new programs.
Here you
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 09:03 — magnetParentHere you go
http://www.guilford.k12.nc.us/magnet/pdfs/GCSAnnualPerformanceExecutiveSummary0708.pdf
The schools mentioned:
More details about these schools wrt the MSAP application/report:
http://www.guilford.k12.nc.us/magnet/pdfs/GCSAnnualPerformanceReportNarrativeReport524B0708.pdf
http://www.guilford.k12.nc.us/magnet/pdfs/GCSAnnualPerformanceReportAppendixB0708.pdf
http://www.guilford.k12.nc.us/magnet/pdfs/GCSAnnualPerformanceReportAppendix0708.pdf
No idea. It's too early
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 07:07 — danofncNo idea. It's too early for me to try to look it up.
If I had to guess, I'd say probably not, because it seems as though middle/early college programs are different than magnet programs.
The way the brochures for those schools read, it seems as though they are 100% application, and strictly merit-based.
For example, "Weaver Academy" is really "Weaver Academy for the Performing and Visual Arts".
No mention of Northwest High
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 08:36 — magnetParentNo mention of Northwest High or the other three on their web page about MSAP grant schools:
http://www.guilford.k12.nc.us/magnet/msap.htm
or their press release:
http://www.gcsnc.com/news/news_detail.aspx?n_id=285
True
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 21:36 — louiselee44The running joke in Guilford is that their school system will build any type of school to accommodate the desires of any student in order to keep their dropout rate down.
They do have some interesting schools.
Still
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 21:18 — Dove314Offers food for thought --
It looks like some high schools are very, very good while others are not so very good at all despite the assignment policy.
It is worth trying to learn from what is working there versus what is not given this is a model for Wake County, is it not?
The 3 you mention with the 100% graduation rates are magnets aren't they? I vaguely remember those names from the MSAP recognitions. Those 3 x 100% magnets will be skewing the overall graduation rate upwards. It would be interesting to know the graduation rate among non-magnet high schools.
Somebody needs to tell Judge
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 15:03 — danofncSomebody needs to tell Judge Manning he's wasting his time. He needs to be focusing on individual students.
It does not save any money
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 10:44 — magnetParentIt does not save any money to move high school to 3rd tier:
"This tier inversion would be possible if the school board came up with
the $748,000 to hire 25 new bus drivers."
I know
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 11:22 — louiselee44I've been told for years that the reason Wake has the bell schedules they have is because they don't have the money for more buses.
What would it take to make Wake a 2 Tier Bus System?
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 21:23 — raleighlauraAnyone know?
Either a lot more buses or
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 14:07 — KeungHui (author)Either a lot more buses or signficant compression of the bus routes so that you could sweep through them in all in two runs.
Sweeten the deal.
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 22:28 — DrActualFactualTo go to two tiers you'd have to cut out transportation for one tier. Since HS kids are the only ones old enough to drive that would be your only choice. No reason to think the parents wouldn't scream just as loud as ES parents. You'd really have to sweeten the deal to make it work--like say all HS start at 8:15 and we promise with the money saved no teachers or classes will be cut from this years current HS schedule for next year. You would have to provide transportation to handicapped/special ed students and any student that can prove hardship (parent has no vehicle or licence, license revoked). Something tweaked along those lines might work--unless the district has been mandated to provide transportation for all students. There are schools out of state that make you use public transportation--not sure what laws apply here.
Highschoolers cannot drive
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 22:46 — magnetParentHighschoolers cannot drive until they are 16. And our school only allows juniors and seniors to drive to school. The parking lots would not be able to accomodate all students driving to school. Not to mention the number of new drivers on the road at the same time... yikes!
I know this well, parents
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 23:01 — DrActualFactualI know this well, parents would have to drive the freshmen/sophomores and young juniors or kids that don't drive yet. Some parking lots may not even have enough room for cars, but the response was to "what does it take to get to two tiers" go ahead and throw out another idea, I'm not thrilled with starting at 7:10 and doing carpool at 6:30 a.m. anyway.
We have three tiers right
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 23:24 — magnetParentWe have three tiers right now. They are proposing adding a fourth tier. I don't think it is possible to cut it down to two tiers for next year. I think that is Debra Goldman's hope/dream after community schools are implemented.
Express buses for magnet schools after next year is likely, but I don't think that is enough to reduce it down to 2 tiers. Not to mention the number of students is still increasing.
For next school year (2010), the best they can do is 3 tiers, but it will cost more.
Also, not all high school drivers can afford/have access to a car. You can be sure the HS parents will scream about that.
Probably a lot of money
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 21:24 — danofncProbably a lot of money and/or a lot of ES students riding with MS students.
"Would you be wiling to..."
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 20:33 — g88ky07NO!
We moved from Raleigh last
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 18:47 — tjquinnWe moved from Raleigh last year. In Texas (as in parts of FL), elementary kids start first, high school second and middle school last. (7:45, 8:45 and 9:05 respectively). High school sports for the most part has am practice. Athletics is actually considered an elective class, so those kids finish up practice and then report to their second of four periods for the day. The working parents of elementary kids like the schedule because, for the most part they only need to arrange after school care, not before and after school care.
Just thoughts....
Kids would need to go to be
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 12:40 — wireless200Kids would need to go to bed earlier and get up earlier. Since when did this become an impediment to success? What happened to "The Early Bird Gets the Worm" and "Early to Bed Early to Rise Makes a Man Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise?"
I know someone who sent her daughter to an elite private school in the northeast. Her daughter said she couldn't wake up at 8 am to make it to class and the school actually created a new section of the class that began at 11 am.
This outcome is the result of the "thinking" and tinkering seen here. I should hope none of these kids ever need to hold a job.
Wonder how counties like
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 12:15 — louiselee44Wonder how counties like Guilford make it work...
Only FYI
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 12:14 — louiselee44This is only for those who might want to read some studies about sleep and achievement. Please don't argue with me about it. I'm just sharing information.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/60154
http://www.nymag.com/news/features/38951
http://library.thinkquest.org/25553/english/well/ages/teen/hspro.shtml
There have been lots of good
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 12:07 — jenmanThere have been lots of good points brought up here. I'm glad that they are thinking about it because like Harry Moncelle said, anything that could be shown to have a positive effect on achievement should be considered.
This isn't a new suggestion, BTW. Its been talked about for a few years now and an earlier start time for Elem students has been talked about as a way to boost achievement as well. The previous board was going to switch several elem schools' start times around this year for that very reason. They decided to study it further but I don't know that they ever did anything formal about doing so. Its definitely worth looking into and I'm glad that its still being discussed.
I see that the bell schedule
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 12:01 — gratefulforjobI see that the bell schedule is being discussed at the finance committee meeting - is that open to the public and do they allow comments at it? It seems that they will be deciding on the 9:30 start time there yet there hasn't been much opportunity for public comment. I think it was discussed at the large meeting that required tickets but the media reports after that said the schedule was voted down and staff had to come up with alternatives so a lot of parents I know were not aware that this is still a very real possibility for the next school year.
I blogged today that it will
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 12:32 — KeungHui (author)I blogged today that it will be discussed during the finance committee. They didn't vote down the new bell schedules last week. They held off on a vote until the finance committee could review the issue. The vote should be next week on Tuesday.
Thanks Kueng! Will comments
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 12:44 — gratefulforjobThanks Kueng! Will comments be allowed at next week's vote?
Boy nothing like the last minute on this. Signup for before and afterschool care is tomorrow at our school (and many schools have already had theirs) and I have no idea what we'll need! In terms of last-minute "gifts" for parents, this board is similar to the last one.
It's a regular board meeting
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 14:20 — KeungHui (author)It's a regular board meeting Tuesday so you can speak during the public comment section.
So..
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 12:52 — Bob_SconceIt is late, but the suggestion from the transportation department came late, as well as the recent notice that the district has to find $20M in cuts for next year.
It's unfortunate, but I'm not sure there's much that can be done about it -- we were warned that the budget cuts would begin to affect the schools. This is just the school schedule. Unfortunately, there's likely a lot worse coming.
schedules.....pro and cons
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 11:44 — bpuli9999Looking at the arguments for and against the proposed schedule changes, it looks to me that the new schedules are okay if you support the new BoE majority (whether or not you have any affected kids). And they are not okay if you don't support the BOE majority.
It is certainly heartening to see how much parents care about (their own) kids...and how they put their kids above partisan politics.
I support the new board and
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 11:52 — gratefulforjobI support the new board and I am against the new schedule so I guess I am the exception to your rule. And yes, I do care about my own kid - if that's selfish, then so be it - it's my job to advocate for her and care for her above all else.
I think the point about HS counselors not being available to work in afterschool programs - which would be needed more than ever - is an extremely good one as is the necessity of afterschool activities and even jobs for high schoolers competing to get into college.
A parent looking out for
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 12:01 — doctorjA parent looking out for their child. Wow! Who'd a thunk it!
Grateful it is your job to advocate for your kid. Everyone else is doing it including myself (most won't admit it). They just attempt to rationalize why what happens to be best for their kid is best for everyone else.
community
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 13:03 — mainesI am really struggling to figure out why it has to be a zero-sum game for so many people. Why can't you care deeply about your own child's circumstances and success and at the same time care about other people's children, too?
No system is perfect, but shouldn't we be trying to do the greatest good for the most kids? I personally think that a longer bus ride for one kid - and 91% of kids in the Wake County School System go to school within 5 miles of their home - is reasonable if it ensures a better education for another. Guess my religion/heritage taught me something different than yours taught you.
Pivot point
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 22:55 — SDR256Thanks Maines - I think you nailed it here. I think this is the pivot point of the whole controversy. It seems hard for some to believe that a parent can try to do the best they can for their own child and still advocate vehemently for the children in our community.
I don't think it is a
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 13:38 — gratefulforjobI don't think it is a zero-sum game. I think many parents do care deeply about all children but obviously their own are going to come first. If your kid is on the longer bus ride but it doesn't have a negative impact, you can probably deal with the inconvenience if it is helping everyone else. But if your kid is adversely affected, then you are going to try to get the situation changed in a way that can help your child and hopefully not negatively impact another child.
Guess my religion/heritage taught me something different than yours taught you.
I'm not sure what you mean by that but I don't think this is the place to make assumptions about someone's religion and background.
Well said! Thank you!
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 13:06 — magnetParentWell said!
Thank you!
Most teens need about 8½ to more than 9 hours of sleep each nigh
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 11:28 — hmoncelleHarry_Moncelle When young people enter high school mother nature plays a trick on young teens. Their circadian rhythm resets. The research shows that the brain hormone melatonin is produced later at night for teens than it is for younger kids and adults. Adolescents don't feel hormonally sleepy until 11 or 12. p.m. In 1996, Edina High School part of the Miniapolis school district(40,000 students) forwarded its start time to 8:30 a.m. from 7:20 a.m; the extra hour made an "extraordinary" difference in the students' performance. If our school district is truly attempting to improve graduation rates for all students they may wish to look to ongoing research about sleep time for all of the student populations within our schools.
Does all this seem like a ES
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 11:18 — user12345Does all this seem like a ES vs. HS parents? ES parents seem to think the world revolves around them since they have not lived through an entire lifecycle of a child.
Priority should be to maintaining quality teachers and reasonable class sizes and all of us should adjust our schedules and lives to enable the saving necessay to make that happen.
So...
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 11:28 — Bob_SconceI would moderately prefer the revised schedule, but I suspect that, in general, the benefit would be a wash to ES parents. It'd be nice to get them out of school earlier so they have more outdoor time before the sun goes down (especially in the winter). But, the earlier bedtimes and after-school care issues probably offset that.
The real driver here, I think, is the claim that high school kids don't get enough sleep and need to go to school later.
The assignment policy could help here -- if a school only has walk-zone students, then it's no longer limited by the need for school buses.
What happens
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 11:04 — JSBinNCto the thousands of es kids that will need to be in ASC with their much earlier release - and there are no HS counsellors to run the programs because they will all be in school until after 4?
My 8-year-old currently gets
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 10:28 — gratefulforjobMy 8-year-old currently gets up at 7:30 and that is a struggle for her! Currently, we have high school kids at bus stops around 6:30 a.m. - I would assume that younger kids would need to be there then, necessitating getting them up before 6. While I understand the studies on teens needing more sleep in the morning, don't younger kids need more sleep overall? How early would these kids have to go to bed to adapt to this schedule? Since my work hours wouldn't change, it would just mean more time in afterschool care and less family time in the evening with my daughter going to bed earlier. Of course, I'm just looking at it from the ES kid perspective but I agree with magnetParent's points on the impact of schedule change on high schoolers. I am glad to read that this is not being considered for the upcoming school year so that there is time for more discussion, research, etc.
I totally echo your
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 10:59 — doctorjI totally echo your concerns. Younger children actually do require more hours of sleep so we are talking bedtimes in the 7 to 7:30 range. For working parents that means the majority of the child’s afternoon will be in afterschool care. The problem I have with this is elementary and middle school aged children are more dependent on their parents for things like homework and there just won’t be more than a couple hours to get everything done (homework, dinner, bath) before bedtime for those working 9 to 5s. A high school aged child can do homework by themselves at home before the parents get there or at school in study hall.
It's not just athletics that
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 10:10 — magnetParentIt's not just athletics that are of concern for high school students.
1. Some also have jobs. NC DOL puts restrictions on how late a teenager can work:
Those under 18 cannot work between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. if there is school the next day. Those younger than 16 cannot work past 7 p.m.
Getting out after 4:00pm makes it difficult to work.
2. The 11th and 12th graders are just starting to drive. Many of them are driving to school. Releasing them from school after 4:00 will put them on the road during rush hour. Some of them on the highway. Not a good mix to me. Same for the morning drive - many schools start early enough that they are not on the road during prime time.
3. Asking my own high school student what he thought about starting school later: He did not like it. He saw it as losing quality time in the day to do homework, clubs, etc. They do these things after school. Gaining "free time" in the morning is a waste. (These are his words). High schoolers have alot more homework than the elementary school age kids so they need the time to do it.
4. Athletics and clubs are also something to note. These are activities that colleges are looking for the students to particpate in.
I don't buy the theory that high school kids need more sleep so they should start later - Given the opportunity they would sleep all day long! Forcing them to get to school at a decent time can help break that habit.
ditto
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 22:08 — prescott2plus if clubs,athletics,band will now be held before school than what is really being accomplished? Not to mention the issue of showers and personal grooming for those early hour athletes an marching band kids.
Same feedback
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 16:41 — Dove314I got the same feedback from my son who also noted that he would not be getting any additional sleep, he would just be doing his homework later in to the evening.
He pointed out the fallacy that changing the start time does not equate with a student getting an additional hour of sleep but instead it just slides their schedule around.
He equated it to an adult whose job started an hour later but who still had all of the same responsibilities of work, school, and home. Starting an hour later just means you stay up an hour later at night as you still have just as much to be done.
High schoolers would not get more sleep unless their responsibilities were reduced.
So...
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 16:47 — Bob_SconceSee elsewhere in this thread the idea that HS students are hard-wired to be awake between the hours of 11 and 12. Your son is probably right about not getting more sleep, but he may be a better student nonetheless.
I'm not suggesting that the change be made for next year or even the year after. But, it's worth thinking about.
..
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 20:48 — Dove314In this economy, I don't see tuition costs declining nor college entrance requirements being relaxed nor the need for distinguished extracurricular activities being dropped. Scholarships may well become less available. As a result, I'm not sure why 2 years is some magic time frame for consideration except 2013-2014 may well be when the revised assignment policy is "fully" implemented.
I think perhaps Ms. Goldman has an idea with which I somewhat agree -- the key may be to see if there are ways to create a process that collapses 3 tiers in to 2 tiers so that no child starts their day at 9:30 finishing after 4 pm and thus reducing the impact both on high school students doing all they can to get in to college and on parents trying to get to work by 9 and still getting little Susie to dance by 4.