Wake County school board chairman Ron Margiotta's proposal to look at converting magnet schools to a multi-track year-round calendar ran into some bumps on Tuesday.
During the student assignment committee meeting, committee chairman John Tedesco asked whether it might be less challenging to implement the year-round model with some of the magnet themes. For instance, he asked if it would be easier to implement year-round with the International Baccalaureate program than with the Gifted and Talented program.
David Ansbacher, senior director of magnet programs, answered that "it depends."
Ansbacher said that the GT program, which is known for offering hundreds of electives, would be the "most challenging" to operate as a multi-track year-round. He said it would be expensive paying for enough teachers to offer elective on all four tracks.
Ansbacher said it would also be expensive to operate IB middle schools and high schools on year-round because students are expected to take foreign language, arts and technology classes each year. Like with GT, they'd have to have enough teachers to offer those courses on all four tracks.
"Is it possible? Yes," Ansbacher said. "It’s likely more expensive.”
Ansbacher said it wouldn't be as hard, in terms of offering different courses, at IB elementary schools.
Ansbacher said it would be less challenging at magnet themes which don't require as much teacher staffing. He cited examples such as the leadership and engineering themed programs.
"Scheduling and teacher cost would give the greatest challenge," Ansbacher said, summarizing the situation. "It's a question of priorities and the investment we'd make in the transition process."
Community committee member Anne Sherron said you also have to keep in mind facility issues because some of the magnets are in older and smaller schools that would be harder to operate on the multi-track year-round calendar.
Comments
How to get more news
Tue, 09/07/2010 - 01:30 — luxiaoxiaocityIn attractive at Millbrook's chic guide, it says that some AP classes may be offered as year-long A/B classes. That would break the spring/fall problem, and additionally bifold the bulk of kids who could potentially booty the class.http://www.all-good-battery.com
Also, there are 2 AP Spanish courses, both of which crave Spanish IV (which is 4th year Spanish, right?) as a prerequisite. On a acceptable schedule, how could you booty Spanish IV above-mentioned to your chief year?
dup
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 08:22 — danofncdup
Magnet sham!
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 05:28 — PACK_MIKE77Are magnet teachers paid more than at other schools? If they are I would understand the argument. If teachers are paid the same, than the YR theory was just blown out of the water. For years the BOE has said it saves money to go YR. What are we to believe. Has the N&O been lying to us about YR schools all these years?
Maybe that is why the race card has been used so effectively by the N&O. The truth is starting to come out that the old BOE was full of misinformation hiding a dismal education experience for so many in Wake county. Forcing the YR schools on so many.
I hope everyone knows block scheduling is a vehicle to replace summer school and give kids eight chances to pass required high school courses. Notice magnet programs do not use block scheduling. The magnet day is still six periods. Why is that? Are six periods better than four? It must be if magnets think so.
Magnet programs are a shining star among the WCPSS. They run on a traditional calendar and their day consists of six periods. Hmmmmm.... Why are the rest of the students made to do other wise, obviously not doing as well.
Teachers at magnet schools
Fri, 09/03/2010 - 01:01 — aquaman4life68Teachers at magnet schools DO NOT make more money. Regardless of where you teach, you get the same pay..of course depending on your level of education/degree(s) and years of experience.
However, principals at magnet schools DO get paid more than principals at traditional schools.
Nice rant. Problem: Garner
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 08:22 — danofncNice rant.
Problem: Garner High School (magnet) is on the block schedule. SE Raleigh (magnet) is on a block schedule AND a modified calendar. Enloe is the only magnet HS that isn't on the block schedule, and some of their kids get waivers so they can skip lunch in order to take an extra class.
The block schedule also makes it possible for kids to take a bunch of AP classes that they wouldn't be able to take, doesn't it? I don't think it was done just to benefit struggling kids.
You could probably make a pretty good argument that the increased pace of the block schedule is worse for struggling kids, no matter how many times they take the class.
?
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 09:43 — Bob_SconceHow does the block schedule allow kids to take a bunch of AP classes that they wouldn't otherwise be able to take? Others here have posted that because of the AP test date, the block schedule means that AP classes are generally only offered in the fall (I don't have any personal knowledge about that), and that would seem to reduce the availability of AP classes.
The only rationale I've ever heard for the block schedule was that it allows kids to retake classes they fail. If you have other information, I'd be glad to see it.
I found this info on the
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 11:33 — jenmanI found this info on the switch from http://www.wcpss.net/news/2003_back_to_school/block_schedule.html
Back to school 2003 - Block scheduling provides more options
Wake County's non-magnet public high schools are moving from the traditional six-period day to what we call a 4x4 block schedule. Instead of taking six classes each year, students will now take four each term, in 90-minute blocks of time, for a total of eight classes each year. This results in 32 credit opportunities in four years, instead of 24.
More freedom, more opportunities, more flexibility
· Moving to a 4x4 block schedule will help students:
· Who want to enroll in additional upper-level courses,
· Who are looking for more opportunities to take elective courses,
· Who may have 'started behind' in middle school and otherwise will not have the chance to complete advanced course sequences,
· Who will be able to take long-term sequences of courses such as band, mathematics, or foreign languages with increased flexibility, and
· Who need to repeat a class but can still graduate within four years.
A student's success in high school depends on the willingness to learn, effective teaching and counseling, a safe environment, and support at home. The 4x4 block schedule will play a part in supporting each of those needs while preserving each student's access to a well-rounded, personalized, rigorous high school experience while meeting stricter north Carolina graduation requirements.
Which schools are involved?
· All non-magnet high schools will convert to a 4x4 block schedule for the 2003-2004 school year.
· Three magnet high schools (Broughton, Enloe, and southeast Raleigh) are already on alternate schedules.
· Three non-magnet high schools are already on 4x4 block schedules.
· Our remaining schools are included and will make the transition.
Why change the schedule?
· North Carolina graduation requirements have changed, leaving little margin for error if a student changes academic programs or falls behind.
· Similarly, the North Carolina Academic Scholars' Program requirements have expanded requiring more schedule flexibility for students.
· The federal 'No child Left Behind' legislation grades schools on their ability to graduate students in four years. Block scheduling provides more opportunities for students to succeed within that time.
I don't have any first-hand
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 10:56 — danofncI don't have any first-hand knowledge, but this is another time when I am making the apparently horrible mistake of applying common sense. I always thought the arguments people made mentioned pros and cons to the offerings of AP courses on a block schedule. Fall block led to a long break before the test, spring block meant some material may not be covered before the test.
If you are at a school that will offer you 32 chances to take classes, and you are a student that could handle taking AP classes, I'd hope you could figure out a way to work your schedule so that you could maximize your AP classes.
If, as you say, AP classes are usually in the fall, then why couldn't those kids shift some other things to the spring?
Couldn't they, in theory, take 3 or 4 maths in their FR and SO years, so that they start they then take AP math as JR and SR students?
So...
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 11:19 — Bob_SconceA study I found on the
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 11:39 — jenmanA study I found on the college board's website: http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/pdf/block_schedules_10409.pdf Of course, this is only one study and it's from 98 but it's interesting nonetheless.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
01/01/1998
The instructional schedule does affect student grades on the four AP Examinations in this study after they have been adjusted for group differences in student ability. The results from this study generally suggest that students, on average, obtain higher AP grades when instruction is given over an entire year rather than in a semesterized block schedule format. These results are consistent across the four AP Examinations and are found on 15 of the 16 comparisons between year-long and semester block courses. The remaining results differ by examination and subject.
I think Enloe kids can only
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 11:36 — danofncI think Enloe kids can only take 8 classes in one year if they get a waiver and skip lunch. If that is the case, I certainly wouldn't treat it as though it is the norm.
If math classes offered in the spring aren't offered in the fall, I'm not sure I understand how the block schedule benefits kids who need to repeat a math class, either.
In looking at Millbrook's curriculum guide, it says that some AP classes may be offered as year-long A/B classes. That would solve the spring/fall problem, and also double the amount of kids who could potentially take the class.
Also, there are 2 AP Spanish courses, both of which require Spanish IV (which is 4th year Spanish, right?) as a prerequisite. On a traditional schedule, how could you take Spanish IV prior to your senior year?
Any situation where an AP class would be the 5th class of a set is obviously easier (possible?) for kids on a block schedule.
So...
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 11:47 — Bob_SconceAS to AP Spanish, doesn't middle school Spanish count as Spanish I? I know my Middle School French classes did, but that was early '80s and I had 3 years of middle school French; don't know if that's possible in WCPSS.
The A/B schedules would help with the AP issue.
I'm still not convinced that block schedules are clearly superior for advanced courses (or for education in general), but you've done a good job of arguing that they're not as bad as I thought.
I think that the block
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 12:00 — danofncI think that the block schedule is like a lot of school issues, which means that there are really good aspects and some not-so-good aspects.
Whether or not you love it or think it is the work of evil would depend on which of those factors were more important.
Re: Spanish...I think it is possible but not assured.
SPANISH I, 10512B, Grades 9, 10: This course is
for the student who wishes to take Spanish for the
first time, as well as the one who has explored the
language at the middle school.
*SPANISH II, 10522C, Grades 9, 10, 11:
Prerequisite: Spanish I. This course is for the student
who has successfully completed Spanish I or has been
recommended from middle school.
I think there is a test kids
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 12:58 — jenmanI think there is a test kids can take at the end of middle school to place out of the first year of Spanish (or whatever language they are taking).
Couldn't they, in theory,
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 11:17 — jenman.
Fri, 09/03/2010 - 01:23 — DrActualFactual.
What about Algebra and YR?
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 16:41 — garnergradI think the BOE needs to address the challenges of Algebra in the current YR middle schools before they start talking about converting magnets.
My son's YR algebra class currently has 39 students. There are 120 kids in the pod, 4 core teachers, each teaching 4 block classes of (ideally) 30 kids. However, 39 kids qualified for Algebra, leaving 81 kids, about 27 kids in each of the 3 remaining math classes. There's no way to address this class size for Algebra because if you split them into 2 classes, you have 40 kids in each of the 2 other math classes. There is no funding available for another math teacher. What now?
I'm all for getting more kids in Algebra, and I expect every child in his class deserves to be there. I just think all 39 are getting a less than optimal experience. This is the reality of year round schools. How can this teacher reasonably be expected to teach all these kids what they need to know?
You are not alone
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 17:40 — Solon77Leesville HS Algebra II - 39 students.
you beat me to it! :)
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 17:47 — AngelaWyou beat me to it! :) (and I was going to be referring to the Honors class)
2. You would need more
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 14:08 — jenmanYR
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 14:15 — kerrieldeliziaDon't I know it! Most specials teachers are track 4. In our former YR school, to participate in choir, if you were not track 4 you had to have a way to bring your child up to school during track out if you expected your child to participate in the concert! This, of course, meant that kisd with 2 working parents, or no way to get to school for the 1 hour practice, did nto have that elective. And believe me there were not many electives from which to choose!
Now why would you chose to send you rkid to a distant magnet for electives that your kid might not even be able to take?
I agree that the GT magnets
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 15:20 — jenmanI agree that the GT magnets would be too difficult to put on the yr calendar. I was thinking more of the other programs.
To me, one of the most unfair things about MYR is that the middle schools offer so much less than the trad middle schools. It's one thing if somebody makes the informed decision to attend a YR middle. They've obviously weighed the pros and cons. It's another thing entirely to assign somebody there. Glad you were able to get into a magnet for your child.
...
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 14:21 — Sideburns"Now why would you chose to send you rkid to a distant magnet for electives that your kid might not even be able to take?"
All the magnet parents I have heard lately have claimed they send their kids to magnets for diversity -- not for electives.
why magnets can't go year round
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 14:00 — kerrieldelizia1. Most magnets are in older buildings that lack the facilites (like storage ) needed for YR. Ex- when a class is tracked out, the teacher moves all her "stuff" out on a cart that goes to storage while the teacher for the incoming track moves her cart of stuff in...
2. You would need more "specials" teachers or else either the specials teacher would have no vacations, or certain tracks would not get electives in that teacher's discipline. No $ savings there
BTW my daughter's magnet had over 800 kids in it last year- 29 or so kids in a class.
"It depends" may be correct, but it's not enough info.
Sat, 09/04/2010 - 12:39 — raleighlauraI'd like to see an analysis from WCPSS showing the cost to construct new elementary traditional calendar elementary schools to seat 2460 children compared to the cost to convert current elementary magnets to Year Round, including salaries and transportation for both data sets. I looked at the capacity figures and think such a transition would add 2460 elementary seats to the magnet program, and that an apples to apples comparison would be helpful.
1. A portable storage unit
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 21:15 — red_balloon1. A portable storage unit can be used.
2. Between the millions spent on magnets and after school activities, it seems to me concern for savings should be anything less than paramount.
uh....wasn't the point of YR
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 10:09 — AngelaWuh....wasn't the point of YR was because it actually "increases capacity" at a school? and because you always have 1 track out, "space" isn't an issue. or do magnets just get special treatment ALWAYS? just how SMALL are these schools? 300 students? 400 hundred?
Enough with the Special Treatment
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 16:24 — g88ky07They just continue to deal out excuses don't they. Old buildings, band classes during track out, parents having to be transportation, won't work because we're too small ... sorry, not good enough.
No one is immune and everyone & every thing should be looked at thoroughly to make this work however it can to best serve the majority of children.
It's called sacrifice and magnets are not immune to it. Or maybe you would rather lose your gifts completely?
They do sound like excuses.
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 21:23 — red_balloonThey do sound like excuses. Unless the approach changes to "let's find solutions", I would be surprised if more barriers don't materialize.
So...
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 10:53 — Bob_SconceI think the point is that you have more flexibility at larger schools.
If, for example, you have a school that only has 2 classrooms for each grade, there's no way to run a 4-track calendar that needs, at minimum, 3 classrooms for each grade.
But, in my view, that's an argument to migrate the magnet programs to larger schools.
It begs the question why the
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 11:13 — red_balloonIt begs the question why the mixing bowls were located ITB.
Good questions. Maybe
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 10:45 — red_balloonGood questions. Maybe Margiotta will expand the academic achievement analysis task entrusted to Dr Hargens to include an analysis into how enhanced offerings can be offered to more students.
There are a few elem magnets
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 10:41 — jenmanThere are a few elem magnets that are pretty small--in the 300s I think.
but again, the premise of YR
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 10:48 — AngelaWbut again, the premise of YR is that it INCREASES CAPACITY of a school, thus offering MORE seats @ magnets.....isn't that what people are so worried about with the new zones? still allowing space @ magnets with "all" these children returning to base?
...
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 10:50 — SideburnsI still don't understand why smaller population schools can't be YR.
facilities
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 11:20 — turnerk1In order to be able to run 4 tracks and truly increase capacity (since at 2 or 3 tracks you really aren't expanding capacity), the school needs to have enough classrooms to have 3 classrooms for every grade (in elementary school -- you'd need more for middle school for teams). Then, you'd also need enough classrooms for the ancillary teachers such as special ed, specials, electives (if the school had them), etc. The smaller elementary schools do not have enough classrooms for 3 classes per grade let alone extra classrooms for the ancillary things.
Not to oversimplify, but say
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 11:27 — red_balloonNot to oversimplify, but say the TR magnet ES has 300 kids. That means, at any given point in time, the school has capacity for 300 students. Now how does it matter which three of the four tracks make up the 300? The number of rooms and teacher is constant. So is the number of students.
Because...
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 12:00 — Bob_SconceThose 300 kids are organized into 6 grades (K-5), with 2 classes of 25 in each grade. You need at least 3 classrooms per grade to have 3 tracks in at the same time.
how about three tracks?
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 12:34 — red_balloonAssuming your example holds true at some magnet schools, let's say the school capacity is bumped up by 50% from 300 students to 450 students. The 450 students are split into three tracks with each track having 150 students. With a four week track-in followed by a two week track-out, you can rotate the tracks such that 150 students are tracked-out at any given time. Thus, a 50% capacity increase is (theoretically) possible in your example.
And...
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 13:02 — Bob_SconceDoesn't work -- kids need 180 school days a year. 4 weeks in, 2 out means that students are in class for 2/3rds of the school year. If you pretend that school was open every weekday (i.e. Christmas, Thanksgiving, Memorial Day, teacher work days, etc....), that only gives you 173 days per year.
From WCPSS' YR
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 21:01 — red_balloonTheoretically
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 12:08 — NWRaleighMomyou can share classrooms among different grades.
?
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 12:15 — Bob_SconceYou mean having a combined 2nd/3rd grade class with one teacher teaching both grades, or a classroom that sometimes has 2nd graders and sometimes has 3rd graders? If it's the latter, then it sounds like you're talking about having, for example 4th graders on tracks 3 and 4 and 5th graders on tracks 1 and 2, or similar?
I suppose that's possible in theory, but you'd probably get a number of really upset parents who have kids in both 4th and 5th grades. And then when the 4th graders go to 5th grade, do you make them switch tracks, or is it now 5th grade on 3/4 and 4th on 1/2?
The latter
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 14:00 — NWRaleighMomI see your point about siblings on different tracks. I checked the school capacity figures. Willey is the smallest with 454 students. I think it is possible to have a 'sibling' track even in Wiley.
Poe has 360 students this
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 15:00 — Formosan80Poe has 360 students this year.
they should be the ones that
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 10:54 — AngelaWthey should be the ones that are looked at FIRST since YR increases capactiy allowing MORE students to benefit from "that" school.....right?
After having read the FAQ
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 11:08 — red_balloonAfter having read the FAQ referenced in Keung's post (below), and reading the questions on this thread, I think WCPSS seriously needs to revisit the assumptions and objectives (stated and unstated) behind the magnet program.
The issue, especially about
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 10:54 — KeungHui (author)The issue, especially about converting magnets, was a big issue in 2006. Click here for the FAQ from the bond.
...
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 11:07 — SideburnsFrom that link:
"Maintaining some elementary magnets on a single-track calendar that matches the single-track middle school and high school calendar will provide an additional reason for parents to consider enrollment in magnet schools over the convenience of enrolling in their geographically closer assigned school."
Seems the only reason given by the 2006 Board to not convert magnet elementary schools was so magnet parents wouldn't be inconvenienced with split calendars. What a concept.
Exactlly. This is one
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 11:11 — red_balloonExactlly. This is one unstated magnet objective. I wonder how many more are embedded within the magnet program and who pays for these (both monetary and denied opportunities).