School administrators are getting some support in their efforts to review and possibly change grading practices in middle schools and high schools.
The Coalition of Concerned Citizens for African American Children issued a press release Saturday in which it says the grading review "will allow all students an equal opportunity to receive equitable evaluation on assessments."
Supporters of the review argue that the elimination of work habits and behavior will make grades truly reflect what students know. Critics complain that the potential adoption of policies such as not giving out zeroes could set a bad example for students.
The review drew some controversial questioning when administrator sought to bring in high-priced consultant Ken O'Connor.
Here's the coalition's press release:
CITIZEN’S GROUP SUPPORTS
Wake County Public School Grading Practice Review
The Coalition of Concerned Citizens for African American Children (CCCAAC) announces its support for WCPSS effort to review its grading practice. We believe that the review will allow WCPSS to develop a systematic grading practice that will allow all students an equal opportunity to receive equitable evaluation on assessments; both formative and summative. Developing a common grading practice will impact the academic achievement and academic performance of all students. This review is consistent with the district’s longstanding commitment to ensure that all students receive equal education opportunities while supporting a diverse population at each school.
UPDATE
Calla Wright, head of the CCCAAC, is raising concerns about the headline describing them as a black advocacy group. She said the group's members include people of many different races and that their support for the grading review isn't designed to benefit children of any particular race.
Comments
Truth in advertising...
Thu, 07/16/2009 - 09:42 — thegloveCalla Wright, head of the The Coalition of Concerned Citizens for African American Children (CCCAAC) , is concerned about her group being tagged as black advocacy group. Gosh, I wonder why people would think that? Just a guess here, but maybe the name of the group gives folks that impression. Also, didn't they have a meeting recently to discuss Wake School issues at the Martin Street Baptist church ...a black church? And, when a few white faces showed for the meeting, they were all but accused of being racists.
Calla, baby, you can't have it both ways. You are what you are. Be proud of it, or change.
“What's your alternative
Thu, 07/16/2009 - 07:40 — user1234“What's your alternative suggestion for closing the gap or are you OK with just leaving it where it is because that's possible?”
Well I suggest making a list …
First, who cares that there is a gap? The kids don’t know they are getting shafted. Their parents are too busy trying to survive and depend on leaders in government to help out – ending segregation, merging school systems, equitable funding, NCLB, etc. I don’t see a lot of outrage from Black leadership. So, the ones making the noise are White Western Wakers whose new found interest is sparked by eliminating the diversity policy not necessarily helping close the gap. It is not like this is a cause they have spent a life time advocating for. Please, not making closing the education gap of low income and minority students a priority in your life does not mean you are a racist … so let’s not go there.
Ok we have the diversity policy that creates some sort of a level playing field. I agree, very lazy and unimaginative. Personally, without customers (e.g. Low income parents) demanding and NED resisting, I am surprised there is anything in place. So, what are some possibilities – KIPP (good for a few schools but too parental intensive for system wide), charter schools (depends on State .. the one low income Black charter school is almost closed for not producing passing grade with in a year when the public school could not do it in a decade), more TAs (not in these financial times) … my controversial suggestion of paying by % improvement … e.g. teacher who moves kids from 30% to 60% doubles their pay while teacher who goes from 96% pass to 96.5% pass gets no bonus. You could also reduce the gap by lowing NED scores which is unproductive.
Overall, my suggestion is keep the lazy, unimaginative diversity policy and start innovating at different schools until we fid what works and start phasing the policy out. Maybe a time table to get all sides moving?
I want to say my wife said the main difference between her low performing / low income academic students who she teaches and the high performing / high income National Merit daughters who she homeschooled is simple – reading. Since our daughters read and were read too from an early age, they developed an extensive vocabulary, appreciation for literature and ability to write well. I typically would bring home 50 library books (e.g. small kids books) a week for the kids to consume. I think my daughters read Harry Potter at five or six and can devour a book in a night now. So, if low income kids read more, especially more challenging books, I think it would make a big difference. I don't know the answer to how to make the happen yet.
Hmm
Thu, 07/16/2009 - 15:34 — Bob_SconceFully agree with your view on reading. That's critical, and kids who aren't reading at home nearly every day in the evening will be hurt, regardless of whether their parents are millionaires or bankrupt. So, it's critical to have early identification of kids who have problems reading and to give them time to read. To me, this means supervised after-school programs where they read.
A similar problem exists in math and arithmetic: if a kid doesn't know his multiplication tables, he will never be able to factor quadratic equations or solve physics problems.
Unfortunately, if a kid gets out of elementary school without the ability to read or to multiply, then (absent some serious intervention) he is doomed for the rest of his academic career and, thus, for the rest of his life. From that point on, it won't matter who his teachers or classmates are -- he just won't understand what's going on.
Those two things are something which Wake can mimic from KIPP -- don't send them home at 3:45. Keep them until 5:00 and make sure they read and work on their multiplication tables until then. Once they've proven they can do it, then they can go home at 3:45.
"Those two things are
Thu, 07/16/2009 - 20:27 — kirtl"Those two things are something which Wake can mimic from KIPP -- don't
send them home at 3:45. Keep them until 5:00 and make sure they read
and work on their multiplication tables until then. Once they've
proven they can do it, then they can go home at 3:45."
I agree. A longer school day could serve many different needs. Physical acivity time could be added. Homework could be eliminated in favor of quality instruction and repetition in school. But remember with longer hours come increased staffing and maintenance costs which means more money in taxes. There really is very little support for that and that kind of money won't be found in administrative cuts.
Alternative suggestion
Thu, 07/16/2009 - 11:53 — klanders65“What's your alternative suggestion for closing the gap or are you OK with just leaving it where it is because that's possible?”
I have a radical alternative suggestion. Quit calling low income students "at risk." Quit using a statistical method that computes lower expected growth for low income students and low income schools--and telling them they are exceeding expectations if kids barely learn or regress. Quit restricting access to the advanced courses to only students who are recommended, and not allowing higher scoring low income students in to the advanced classes.
Alternative Suggestion
Thu, 07/16/2009 - 15:17 — BWNelson“What's your alternative suggestion for closing the gap or are you OK with just leaving it where it is because that's possible?”
First, thanks for a great discussion. I have taken some time and looked at the links people have provided. One thing I came into this believing is that intelligence is spread up and down the socioeconomic spectrum and across racial divides. One of the takeaway points I got from the links provided, along with thinking over my own past experiences, was that there
is a culture of "coolness" and if you are in that culture, it just
isn't cool to appear studious or academic. Being somewhat disruptive and loud is also part of the "cool" culture.
Today I had lunch with my Teachers Aide friend. I was telling her about the discussion here about the idea of giving two grades and she immediately told me a story about one of her students who everyone thought was failing straight up and yet he scored a level IV on his reading score. So I asked, well, why was he seen to be failing. She said that he never did any homework or classwork, was frequently late, had a disorganized family that was known to have freqeunt brushes with the law, and he was basically kind of mouthy (my words, not hers), and disruptive in class. I didn't ask what his racial or economic background was.
This started me thinking about the student produced report that was linked to this discussion, where the girl reporting was placed into AP History and really got to like the fact that civil debate occurred in the class where people listened to and responded to each others arguments. She compared it to her "mainstream" classes where that sort of discussion would tend to degenerate into name-calling and insults. What was disturbing about this is that way back in the 70s when I was in school, I remember the best classes were ones where people were able to talk and debate issues. These weren't necessarily AP classes, either. Isn't that what is needed to have good citizens, after all? I also felt sad that the only place this student could get such basic experience was in AP.
So back to the two grade system. Is it possible to take these underperforming "smart" kids and give them the ability to broaden their horizons without causing disruption to the other kids in the AP classes? Moreover, is it possible to get the mainstream classes to the point where everyone is engaged in the material such that they graduate to be engaged and thoughtful citizens, along with whatever career or academic path they end up taking?
A very important point
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 00:09 — klanders65Something that I think is missing from all this great dialog is the role of the teacher and the role of assessing. I don't feel like I am using grades to judge my students. I've only had a very few students who I thought may not be able to learn what I am teaching them. Very few. And those few were in 8th grade and couldn't make their letters and numbers.
The homework is to help them learn. Everything we do is to help them learn. I guess I don't think it is my job to teach them morality and work ethics. My job is to teach them math. It almost always takes hard work to learn math. If I have a student who is learning what I am trying to teach them with no effort, then I step it up. I put them on a math team and give them more challenging work.
To me, if a student is getting a bad grade that means they are not learning what I am trying to teach them. And I need to do something different.
I would never have a student who is mastering what I am trying to teach them, yet having some sort of bad work ethic so I want to grade them low.
I personally am very well organized and neat. I've had to hold back from thinking that the students should all be like me. Many are sloppy and have bad handwriting, yet are wonderful at math. I don't want to send them the message that they should get out of math because they have bad handwriting. I help them organize because as the math gets harder, organization matters more.
The question about the student who tries but doesn't get it, who might get a lower grade than someone who doesn't do the homework but gets a good grade confused me. If I have a student who is trying and not getting it, the grade is a message to me that I need to work more with that student--or listen and see if I can understand what they don't get. That is what the grade is for. It is not a judgement of the student's character. I want them to get it.
I want the grades to tell me who gets it and who needs more help.
I will just say that
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 09:27 — momof2goodboysI will just say that although I see what you are trying to say, I still don't agree with the whole concept. To me, a large part of an education in school is having the discipline of doing assignments when assigned, and managing your time to get things done and turned in on time.
analogy
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 19:51 — klanders65A large part of health is exercise and eating right, and these things are important. If you went to the doctor and he did blood tests for diabetes, and also had you report about your exercise habits and how you eat, would you want him to blend together the results of your behavior report and your blood tests and tell you that your health factor is about a B+, when you have diabetes? Or, would you rather have him tell you that your behavior is A+ but unfortunately, you have diabetes?
We are only talking about keeping the information separate so that you have more information. It would be great that you exercise and eat right. But it would be so helpful to know that you had diabetes so that it could be treated.
It is great if kids work hard and have good time management skills. But we need to know whether or not they have mastered content so we can do something about it. It seems almost as if some people think it doesn't matter whether they actually master the content, and the the GPA is for getting in to college.
How is that lost if you get
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 12:09 — kirtlHow is that lost if you get notified by report card ,which shows clearly how your child is doing on the concepts and clearly how they are doing behaviorally?
I am begininng to think that what those of you that oppose this want is for the teacher to do it all and relieve you of any responsibility. Is that it? Your child still gets graded on when they turn in the work. You, the parent, then need to provide the motivation to improve behavior if that motivation is not there.
Get Real!
Mon, 07/13/2009 - 23:23 — momof2goodboysThis is the biggest dis-service we could do to any child, I don't care if they are black, white, or multi-colored with spots! Rewarding the type of work ethics that this does is assinine! Even if you don't believe that, how are our teachers with 30+ kids in their class going to keep track of all this! It is a logistics nightmare! I wish the school board could just focus on a good education for all. Take what we have and just work with it. The grades will reflect this effort. Reinforcing slackness is NOT the answer!
Colleges will look at our graduates and laugh out loud!!! So much for higher education in Wake County.
not a nightmare, it is a dream
Tue, 07/14/2009 - 00:08 — klanders65Speaking from experience as a teacher, this would not be hard to do at all. It would be easy. I am so tired of kids coming into my math classes with some history of grades that tell me nothing about what they actually know. I would love this.
And, if kids can master the content without completing the work (like you all fear they'd do), then either they are brilliant or the work is not hard enough. Something would be wrong if they can master the content without doing the work. If there is no connection there, then the kids must be learning the material somewhere else or they are being taught things they already know and the work is just busy work.
Some of my best math students had messy notebooks. That doesn't bother me so I didn't grade down for messy notebook, but one of our science teachers hated messy notebooks and no matter what your test average, if that notebook was messy you could not get a high grade. She thought messy notebook was bad work ethic. How many people work in offices where someone has a messy desk yet produces just fine and has work done on time? We are talking about things like this.
In my math class, (as the engineer explained), you cannot get a good grade on the test if you are not doing the homework because you won't know how to do the work. So, if I don't grade you down for not doing the homework, your grade is going to suffer because you will get a bad grade on the test.
To me, this is about the kids who do their homework and learn the material, but their notebook is messy so they get bad grades. Or, the homework is busy work and does not support learning. The bright kids don't do it because they would be too bored (e.g., word searches of their social studies words), they ace the test but suffer for the bad work ethic of not doing word search homeworks.
There is far far more of this than you might be aware of. I tell my top math students that they have to do these horribly boring homeworks or the punishment is being placed into classes where that is all they get to do. They ask me why they should do spelling assignments to learn words they already know. I tell them the reward is they will be placed into top English classes that are interesting and challenging, and if they don't suffer through the horrible mind-numbing homework they will be punished with classes like that forever. And I mean it.
In addition to what I say here, I see teachers who don't even know how to compute grades so they kind of estimate them. And I see incredible racial bias in the subjective ways that grades are done. And this has now been documented by the school system.
Don't worry about us teachers. It is not a nightmare. Of course, I am a math teacher and will know how to figure the grades and measure what kids know. I suppose some teachers won't be able to. And, the teachers who give word search homeworks or assignments to practice things that kids already know get really angry when the kids who didn't do the assignments ace the tests. And the messy notebooks are a moral issue. People with messy notebooks simply should not be allowed to learn. It isn't right.
So the kid who does his
Tue, 07/14/2009 - 23:33 — momof2goodboysSo the kid who does his homework, but isn't quite getting the concept gets bad grades if it is wrong- but he at least tried- and then does OK on the test because it finally comes together for him, but the kid who does no homework doesn't get a 0. The kid who tried will have poor homework grades that will bring his average grade down regardless of test grade. That just seems unfair to me.
I don't know where you teach, but I can't imagine any teacher with 4 or more classes with 30+ kids being able to keep up with what this will involve.
technology
Tue, 07/14/2009 - 23:40 — klanders65I use Excel. It will be easy to keep up with by keeping records in Excel.
I couldn't quite follow your example. My main goal is that the kids who finally get it and understand and master the content will get a grade that reflects that. If someone does not do their homework but they already have mastered the content and get As on tests and quizzes (not very likely), then I don't have a problem giving them an A to show they have mastered the content. The homework was supposed to help them master the content.
I guess I don't see the homework as developing work ethic. I view it as a way to help students practice what they need to so they master the content. Once they've mastered it, I don't think they need to keep trying to do things to help them master it. It is just a different way of looking at it.
Grading is a big chore. Technology really helps. I put all the grades in Excel and I can then write formulas to compute any way I want. I write one formula and paste it down to all kids. It just isn't hard.
Other side...
Tue, 07/14/2009 - 07:15 — Bob_SconceSo, at some point, this can correct for what are basically arbitrary grading practices by poor teachers. Had a neighbor, good student, with a project due originally on day X. On a day she wasn't in class, the due date was changed to the previous day (X-1) and she never found out. So, she turned it in on day X and got a D because it was late. The parents tried to talk to the teacher (response: "it's her job to know when her homework is due") and to the principal ("Grades are set by the teacher.")
This wouldn't completely stop bad teachers from hurting good students, but might reduce it some. Of course, my preference would be to get rid of the bad teachers.
The line "In the real world, you can't turn things in late" is just plain wrong -- a lot of times you can, especially if you tell people that it will be late in advance.
Thank you, kirtl ......
Mon, 07/13/2009 - 21:03 — Apexter... for being willing to respond to the criticisms here, as someone who has read the book and knows some of the author's intentions.
While I see the logic in separating the performance-based scoring from behaviour-based issues, I still see the Devil in the details, and wonder how fairly and effectively this can be implemented.
The normal scheme of things from my educational experience was this:
(1) Teacher makes an initial presentation of material in class, and assigns homework.
(2) Student does homework, to gain experience applying the principles he was taught in class
(3) Teacher goes over homework in class. This gives students a chance to check their work, and ask questions about things they discovered that they didn't know as they were working on the homework. OR
(3 - A) Student turns in homework, and it is graded and returned to the student so that they can see where their errors were.
Based on this framework, it seems that the "Let the student turn in the homework when he damned well pleases" method would fail. If the student just waits to turn in homework until after the homework has been graded, he can then make a perfect score every time. (If this method is used, I would hope that there would at least be a grading penalty on the homework; e.g., even 100% correct would earn you a maximum of 80%)
And, another case of the devil being in the details ---- remember that the author may have had some very well thought out intents, but there is no guarantee that safeguards he may have put in place will be left in place when implemented. For instance, my son's middle school implemented a portion of this last year. They had a no zero policy, based on the theory that a zero or two is impossible to recover from. Consequently, zeroes became 60's instead. If you can do nothing and get a 60, or work as hard as you can, and make a 70, how much incentive is there to do anything at all?
My college education was in engineering, and I'll admit to a having a somewhat bigoted view regarding the rigor of my coursework as compared to an education major's. In high level math and scientific fields, there really is no substitute for doing your homework. It is a necessary part of learning what you need to do. I fear that continually dumbing down our requirements will destroy the necessary work habits and work ethic required to handle such fields. Skipping reading the chapter on the Brobdingnangians in Gulliver's Travels will not necessarily hamper you on the test for that book, and certainly will not cripple your entire English grade. Skipping the chapter on array operations or natural logarithms, however, CAN cripple your ability to solve crucial problems, not only in that chapter of the math book, but in later chapters, and in other courses that depend upon your ability to do the math. I think those with a more humanities-based curriculum tend to underrate the importance of doing the homework and how important a part that is of teaching new concepts in a technical field.
Does this actually do what is needed?
Tue, 07/14/2009 - 07:48 — RichardAnderson"The normal scheme of things from my educational experience was this:
(1) Teacher makes an initial presentation of material in class, and assigns homework.
(2) Student does homework, to gain experience applying the principles he was taught in class
(3) Teacher goes over homework in class. This gives students a chance
to check their work, and ask questions about things they discovered
that they didn't know as they were working on the homework. OR
(3 - A) Student turns in homework, and it is graded and returned to the student so that they can see where their errors were."
Thank you. That is more eloquently stated than I was able. Removing the deadline (which I know this doesn't do, but it does reduce the importance) has a profound impact on this structure.
As a humanities major and former teacher, I can assure you that this is also an issue in that discipline. While it may be true that sometimes you can skip a chapter in a literature book and still get what you need out of it, I assure you that you cannot understand the Gadsen Purchase if you skipped the Mexican-American War work. While the understanding is not quite as concrete as your example, you can still know the facts of the Gadsen Purchase without knowing anything about the Mexican American War, this relates back to my comments of things not always being so black and white. Recitation of facts is not the only part of education. There is understanding. Critical thinking. These things depend on the structure you outlined above to achieve.
This proposal, while perhaps bringing some good to the table, doesn't seem to get to the root issue which is fair and consistent grading procedures. If we don't set a policy for what the penalty for late work is, then all we have done is moved that problem to a different grade. It might make identifying the student issue a little easier (the work being late) but we still have the same problem of student achievement being marked inconsistently.
I am skeptical of this because I fear that removing time pressure can have a detrimental impact on children attaining understanding, even if they have msatery of the testable facts and because it still leaves many of the other critical grading issues unaddressed.
Good discussion.
1) This one change does not
Tue, 07/14/2009 - 10:49 — kirtl1) This one change does not eliminate any form of instruction. The idea is that if the student has skipped the homework but demonstrates mastery of the material, a zero should not be included in a grade that is intended to reflect knowledge of the material. The grade should reflect what the student knows, not behavior. Behavior is still addressed but separately.
2)The only way this reduces the time pressure is if the teachers and parents allow it to be reduced. If the student is turning in work late, the behavior grade should reflect that. That is step one and the teacher has helped to identify the problem accurately. The parents should then address the problem with their child.
3)Also, what critical grading issues are left unaddressed? Do you think this one step is intended as the cure all for grading? It is one of 15 suggested fixes listed in the book.
I am not a defender of all things WCPSS, but this book is being attacked by many that know nothing about it. Good, positive things can come from it, if we discuss it honestly. I don't know if it's at the public library, but everyone that has not read the book should take the time you would spend posting here, go find the book and read it first. Then come back here to discuss it.
I agree, good discussion. It could be better though.
3 - The issue of variability
Tue, 07/14/2009 - 12:15 — RichardAnderson3 - The issue of variability between teachers. If we still have a situation where some kids get to drop their lowest grade and others don't, we still have that problem. To me, that is the more pressing issue, expecially as it relates to the equity in education question.
Variability between
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 12:16 — kirtlVariability between teachers is an administrative/management issue and will not be solved by the grading system.I am not suggesting it is not a problem, just that it must be solved another way.
As for the dropping of a lowest grade, it sounds like you value absolute equality over learning. The kid that gets to drop a grade, proved that he/she mastered the material. Your saying that child should be penalized for academic success so that a child with lesser success can either feel better or have some false sense of fairness due to equal numbers of assignments.I disagree with that.
Uhh...
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 12:27 — Bob_SconceI think the point about dropping a lower grade is this:
"Adam" is in a class where the teacher drops the lowest grade, and "Bobby" is in a class where the teacher doesn't. Adam and Bobby each get the following grades:
95 94 96 72
Adam's average is a 95. Adam gets an A. Bobby's average is an 89. Bobby gets a B.
It's a question of GPAs and class rank actually reporting relative learning, which is important for college admissions, among other things.
Why would the teacher drop
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 12:44 — kirtlWhy would the teacher drop the 72 from Adam's grades? He turned it in. It counts for both. Both students earned a B.
"relative learning" ? Relative to what? I think you mean relative to peers. I have no problem with that. Those comparing students for employment, or college admission or whatever can look and see clearly from this grading how the student did on the content and how they got to their level of knowledge. If "Adam" and "Bobby" are interviewing with me for employment, I compare transcripts and see that they both mastered the content, but "Adam" rarely turned in his work on time. Don't you think that that is a more complete picture and makes my job easier?
Huh?
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 13:42 — Bob_SconceAs to your question, the premise was that there's unfairness when one teacher drops the lowest grade and another doesn't. (That is what we're talking about, right?) Adam's teacher is the one who drops the lowest grade -- the 72.
I'm speaking only as it
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 15:41 — kirtlI'm speaking only as it applies to the discussion of the O'Connor suggestion for separating content from behavior. I don't think this is the appropriate forum for discussions on grading differences beween teachers unless it relates to that subject.
Where that is involved, O'Connor would not have Adam's teacher drop the 72 if it were a content grade. Does that answer your question?
Bigger fish
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 15:50 — RichardAndersonMy point in bringing up the dropping of tests is that we have bigger fish to fry when it comes to evaluation standards. If teachers can set with nearly no limits what policies are used, it doesn't matter how many categories of evaluation they have to give a letter too, we will end up with the same issues, in my opinion.
What is your suggestion to
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 15:57 — kirtlWhat is your suggestion to improve that?
I think you misunderstand
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 12:26 — RichardAndersonNo, I don't value equality over learning. The dropping a test was just an example of how there is variance in grading. Learning always comes first. However, secondary to learning is evaluation. In evaluation I do indeed value equality and consistency above all else. Evaluation cannot be vairable or it is meaningless. We don't have different grading standards on the EOGs based on which teacher taught the class, so why do we have that for the work done in class?
I don't see how this
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 12:50 — kirtlI don't see how this creates variability. Content mastery is evaluated. If an assignment is not present it is not included because it cannot show mastery or lack thereof. If other assignments show that mastery, the student can move forward. If not, their work is incomplete and they remain at the same level. Behavioral grades are impacted for all missed assignments, so that grade will suffer and you as a parent will get notification so that you might take action on your child.
Greater specificity is gained here.
I appreciate your response.
Mon, 07/13/2009 - 21:20 — kirtlI appreciate your response. Good discussion can help us reach our common goal of better schools.
I think a discussion of homework could fill it's own thread so I won't dive in full force on that. Let me ask you one question, though, which jumped out at me as I read your reply. If the student can skip the homework and still demonstrate knowledge and application of the skills and objectives, should he/she fail?
I say no, but we have learned that the student needs bigger, more rigorous challenges. Students should be presented with appropriate challenges and not passed until they meet those challenges and demonstrate mastery. Effective grading systems identify how to challenge students.
"If the student can skip
Mon, 07/13/2009 - 21:43 — Apexter"If the student can skip the homework and still demonstrate knowledge
and application of the skills and objectives, should he/she fail?"
No. And in my experience, the grading scheme is normally set up to avoid that, with a homework grade making up maybe 10-20% of the total. At that level, though, you'd have to do DARNED good on all the tests and other assignments to make up for the difference. Actually, I'd be willing to blow off the requirement to include the homework in the student's overall grade if they were able to keep an A or B average on tests without benefit of having done the homework --- but a customized grading scheme seems like it is moving away from the standardization of grading that this seems to advocate. (And, again, I'd say that you'd be much more likely to get away with this in a humanities course than a math or science one.)
And I guess I'm pessimistic about us coming up with a more complex grading scheme than we have now when I feel that we aren't doing the best job with the simpler system we have now. For instance, instead of genuine comments on my middle grader's report cards, I get the same identical canned text for every class "CLASSROOM CONDUCT IS EXCELLENT HOMEWORK IS ALWAYS COMPLETE NOTES ARE ALWAYS EFFECTIVE." (With occasional drops to "Above Average" conduct or "often effective." )
Excellent comments. The
Mon, 07/13/2009 - 22:07 — kirtlExcellent comments. The only thing I can add is, in order to get the more specific comments, and I'd like them too, the teacher needs time. Good feedback is time consuming. Time is being taken away though, not added(Wed. PLC meetings for one).
Homework is a big topic. I'd love to be part of a discussion on that.
race and whatever based grading already
Mon, 07/13/2009 - 14:26 — klanders65We currently have race-based grading. Not that anyone is doing it on purpose, but that is what we have. Teachers can forgive a late paper for students who they know have all sorts of potential and didn't mean it.
The proof is in the pudding. Wake's Evaluation Department did its own study and looked at how middle school report card grades correlate with tests that measure what kids know. These two things don't correlate the same for different races. Black students who scored Level IV do not earn the high grades that White Level IV students earn. This report is on their website. It was completed in Oct 2008.
Some teachers teach content and want everyone to learn. Most of us have been lucky enough to have a few of those teachers. Other teachers demand that your name is in the top left corner in ink not pencil and if not, they won't take the work; or they demand that all fractions are reduced or the half page of correct work will all be counted wrong, etc. There is no way to know what grades tell us.
If it were true that grades reflected timeliness and content mastery then we would be discussing whether we should split those two apart and have two separate grades. But, with one teacher, they might reflect your posture, whether you brought in tennis balls for the bottom of the chair legs, if she notices your hand is raised often, etc. while another teacher is grading on how hard you try even though you don't know anything.
We have no idea what the grades tell us. My daughter has had half the homework she does is not even graded. Some homework is like busy work.
You have to ask yourself how the Black students learn enough to earn Level IV on the EOG if they are not doing the work. Not only is the grading racially biased (as shown in the data reported in this report that WCPSS did), but we have no idea what the grades are reflecting. All we know is that they do not tell us what kids know. But we do not know that they tell us who has a good work ethic, and who follows directions. Teachers can grade based on any thing they want. It is all over the board. And it is documented that it is racially biased.
October 2008 Study
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 09:25 — BWNelsonI found the study you were referring to and found it to be pretty interesting. I have a couple thoughts about resolving the discrepancies. The standardized test, I would have to assume, is machine graded and multiple choice based. The classroom grades are based on different ways of mastering the course and, (other than math, probably), involve things such as essays, tests, (both essay and mult choice/fill in the blank). So the methods of assessment differ for the two evaluation systems right off the bat. I would think that the letter grading system would be the more attractive to consider for college admissions because the goal is to have academics that are able to show their mettle in ways other than standardized machine graded tests. But most of us know that SATs and ACT scores also play a big role in admissions. So most colleges do a combination of both, don't you think? Only the school system is concerned with the statewide tests.
So that's the first part of what I was thinking about it. The second thing that struck me was that the sense I got from this discussion was that it was all about black students and white students. But it wasn't. The students that did best, and the ones with the highest correlation between their classroom grade and their testing scores were Asians. Furthermore, the study itself didn't take into account the students whose cultural heritage derives from India, of which we have a sizable population. In fact, I would find it interesting if the scores were divided between native and non-native North Carolinians, because I think that might show some interesting correlations as well.
I guess, when I think about the Asian performance and compare it to the "Black" performance, I would want to know what it is about Asian culture that lends such an academic advantage. From personal experience, coming from the midwest, there were lots of Vietnamese people that migrated into the area where I lived. These people were in no way "connected". They were poor when they came, yet within ten years the kids were considerably above average in terms of school performance. There was a lot of press generated about that. Wasn't it just a few years ago that one of the Universities in CA was thinking about capping the number of Asian students? That says a lot. If something about Asian culture fosters academics, could it be that something about Black culture here in Wake County discounts academics leading to lower academic performance and thence lower grades?
examples
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 12:01 — klanders65This may seem simplistic, but not only do I observe this, it is also what is reported in education research journals. Teachers expect Asians to do well, and grade them high regardless, and keep giving them more chances. When Black students do well, it is considered an anomoly (good thing I am not an English teacher--I can't spell). They make Hallmark specials about a little Black girl studying her spelling words and winning a contest like that is some amazing thing that we would never expect. The Black students get tracked into lower track classes even when they score high.
In that report, they didn't say Asians standardized test scores had the greatest correlation to grades. They said they correlated in different ways. Even when they were Level II (below grade level) they were earning As. Teachers just expect the Asians to be smart. Whoever the teachers expect to be smart will be treated like they are smart. They'll be given breaks. Their mistakes will be forgiven and they get another chance. They get treated in ways that promote success and eventually they come out successful.
No matter what they are learning or how well they are performing, the Black students tend to get treated as if we can't expect them to excel. All the kids mess up all the time. They all do. But their mess ups are treated differently. Of course we are trying to teach them all to be organized and to manage their time, etc. They all need help with those things. We treat some kids like they are as disorganized as is expected for their age and we are bringing them along. We treat other kids as if they are hopelessly disorganized and it is just how it is.
You may wonder if attitudes like this could really account for the difference in performances of income and races. It does. It accounts for the different ways that content mastery correlates with classroom grades. It accounts for why there are so few minority students in advanced courses. It is the schools, not the kids. We need systemic change to change this.
If you consider where we are coming from historically in the schools, it makes sense that this is where we are. It is where we came from. But we are now ready to move on.
And this isn't just about race. All sorts of kinds of kids are expected not to excel. Even rich white kids with messy notebooks. Low income and minority students will benefit from this change because they currently belong to a "low expectations" group. Wake Co Schools officially refers to low income students as "academically at risk." Look where you found that paper and you'll see other papers they've done trying to figure out how low income kids can learn. The papers are hard to follow but they find that quality instruction (duh) promotes their success. When we call them "academically at risk" you cannot claim we have the same expectations for all kids.
"No matter what they are
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 12:52 — user1234"No matter what they are learning or how well they are performing, the Black students tend to get treated as if we can't expect them to excel. All the kids mess up all the time. They all do. But their mess ups are treated differently."
Hmm ... from the HS data, the lower the ED% of a school the higher their % passing. I wonder if when a minority is in the minority (e.g. only Black in the class) people forget the kid is Black and expect the same work, participation, results as all the other kids but when % Black crosses some threshold (e.g. 15%??) people allow different / lower expectations for the black kids to creep in (behavior, homework, etc.)? Very complicated
complicated indeed
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 13:27 — klanders65It is very complicated. But I think what you are saying here is true. The problem for Black kids is that they are associated in peoples' minds with low income. And in Wake, low income means "at risk." We base our expectations on the worst in the group. Even a top notch A+ Level IV low income students is called "academically at risk." These expectations move out to the school levels. If high numbers of low income students are in a school, expectations for the whole school are lower. Then, people's reactions to everything adjust to those expectations.
Even their Effectiveness Index where they compute statistically whether schools are effective or whether individual students are doing as expected adjusts the expectations both for the income of the student and the percentage of low income students in the school. (EVAAS doesn't do this, which is why they don't want anyone in Wake using EVAAS.)
On their website with the reports, from a report titled Effectiveness Index Residuals: Here is their explanation of what they do:
A student residual is the difference in scalescore points between a student’s actual score and the score predicted for thatstudent by a statistical method called multiple regression. The regression equation takes intoconsideration the student’s pretest score, the student’s special educationservices, AG status, the student’s free or reduced-price lunch (FRL) status,and the school’s FRL percentage and then calculates the score a student wouldbe expected to achieve based upon the predictor variables and the performanceof other WCPSS students who took the test and had the same pretest scores andacademic indicators.
We looked at some of the residuals for our students and saw that students who start at the exact same place coming in to a grade--totally the same scores, have different expected scores. The low income students are expected to learn less according to this formula, even when to date they have learned the same. We even have students who have high scores but are low income and this residual formula shows that they are expected to lose ground and score lower. They are scoring too high for their low income group. Or, if the school is high low income, they could be scoring too high for the school they are in. As a math teacher, I understand this data. But most of the teachers I see and even some administrators just look at the expected scores or the residuals, then think everything is fine. Or, you could look at a teacher's residuals and if the school is low income and students are low income, not much is expected of that teacher. the teacher residual could look fine when the students are learning nothing or losing ground.
Continental divide separates Africans, African-Americans
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 14:12 — user1234Reference: I thought this article was related to what you were saying on expectations:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/14/africans.in.america/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
good article
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 14:31 — klanders65http://podcast.prx.org/genprx/audio/youthcast_2007_04_04.mp3
Good article. Someone sent me this podcast. You might find it interesting.
Wow Tracking is Genocide
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 15:18 — user1234See how tracking affects minorities. Subtle discrimination that keeps expectation low.
Yup
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 15:52 — Bob_SconceGeorge Bush called this the "Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations"
Bob, that is one of the
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 16:22 — user1234Bob, that is one of the benefits of the diversity policy that it takes some kids out of where not much is expected and puts them where kids have high expectation and goals. I guess if you could ever "fix" the home school, neighborhood, community (many, many people) to simulate the same environment, maybe the neighborhood school could produce the same expectations / results ... sounds like an impossible task ...
Not as simple
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 22:46 — FalcIt's not as simple as osmosis, which is one of the reasons the results are not there.
How do you think simply putting them where kids have high expectations and goals helps? The kids that have high expectations have them of themselves and others have high expectations of them. Simply seeing someone else model it, is not enough. While expectations are high for their NED classmates, due to their ED status, ED students here are expected to be "at risk." Seeing it/having it expected of someone else is not the same as having it expected of you or expecting it of yourself.
I think most people could agree that Enloe as a GT magnet has a lot of students with high expectations and goals and yet only 40.5% of ED students there passed EOCs compared to 52.4% for the district average.
This is where all that soft skill development stuff that you want to forego for more math comes into play.
It is about "fixing" students, not schools. If the students' self-esteem, character, expectations, and thinking skills are developed and missing skills/knowledge filled in, then other things fall into place. Those things don't happen via osmosis.
It's not easy because it takes effort, but neither is it impossible.
What's your alternative suggestion for closing the gap or are you OK with just leaving it where it is because that's possible?
The kids are not broken
Thu, 07/16/2009 - 00:25 — klanders65You are missing something here. Enloe has lower pass rate for ED kids than the district as a whole because there is not a chance that ED kids can get the seats in the challenging courses when the powerful wealthy people buy houses they don't want and do whatever it takes to get into Enloe. They wouldn't give up those seats. There is no way an ED kid could have one. They are far too valuable. It is not about the kids' self esteem, it is about the value of those seats in the top classes.
I understand
Thu, 07/16/2009 - 09:59 — Falcthat is the situation which just goes to the point that just putting a certain mix of students in the same school in and of itself doesn't necessarily accomplish much.
Unless things have changed with the times, having grown up borderline ED in a high ED area, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the self-esteem.
Please don't misunderstand "fix", it is not that they are broken or inherently less capable, but on average they start their public education experience with missing skills having had less access to things like books and academic pre-school environments. Add the lower expectation of them factor on and...
But...
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 20:58 — Bob_SconceSo, at my kid's school, the kids who are bussed in from elsewhere are generally not expected to do well. I've heard some variation of "She's stupid -- she rides the bus" a number of times.
I don't generally buy the "peer pressure" view of diversity benefits -- just about every time I've encountered peer pressure, it's been a negative thing.
In my middle school, the advanced kids from 7th grade had gym class with the reprobates from the 8th grade. Not an especially enlightened mix. The 8th graders didn't get any better, but there were a lot more 7th graders with wedgies.
Reinforcing low expectations?
Wed, 07/15/2009 - 12:39 — RichardAndersonWake Co Schools officially refers to low income students as
"academically at risk." Look where you found that paper and you'll see
other papers they've done trying to figure out how low income kids can
learn. The papers are hard to follow but they find that quality
instruction (duh) promotes their success. When we call them
"academically at risk" you cannot claim we have the same expectations
for all kids.
I have the same fear. By labeling kids as "at-risk", by putting in place a policy which says that too many low income children in one school would be a failure waiting to happen, by setting up a system that labels all in a group based on the performance of the worst, are we in fact increasing the likelihood of the poor outcomes that we are trying to avoid?
More Info on Oct 2008 Study Please
Tue, 07/14/2009 - 20:02 — BWNelsonklanders65 wrote:
We currently have race-based grading. Not that anyone is doing it on
purpose, but that is what we have. Teachers can forgive a late paper
for students who they know have all sorts of potential and didn't mean
it.
I went to the BOE site and couldn't find the study you referred to. Could you give me more info on it so I can find it to read? Also, if you don't mind, if you could give some concrete examples of how this is actually happening, whether anecdotal or measured, and how this is race based, it would help me understand better.
Some good points...
Mon, 07/13/2009 - 14:44 — kirtlSome good points, and the fixes noted in the book address them all. Administrative and parental enforcement will still be necessary and we can discuss whether or not that will happen. However, how can a clearer, more precise, more informative report card be a bad thing?
This is simply
Mon, 07/13/2009 - 14:24 — RiversideRealist.. asinine. There is not other way to say it.
Why do you need two "final", "midterm", "report card" grades? Aren't individual assignments GRADED???
When I was in school, if I handed in ANYTHING, it got graded. And it got graded with SPECIFICS:
Spelling Errors: X%
Creativity: Y%
Days Late: -Z%
Etc...
Overall grade = 100% minus the above errors/issues
If a parent is paying attention to what their kids bring home, they will see this. No doubt teachers keep records ALREADY of the students who do this thing perpetually and bring it up at parent-teacher meetings.
This is just another way to "take care of Johnny cradle-to-grave" when Johnny's Mommy and Baby-Daddy don't have the time, interest or inclination to do it themselves.
Aren't people TIRED of this sort of mediocrity? And the perpetuation through the EDUCRATS of this soft of mediocrity? No wonder other civilized (and hell, even quasi-civilized) countries are kicking our asses... and having a good laugh about it, to boot.
Every time I come back here to see what stupidity WCPSS is up to, I leave feeling the absolute THRILL of knowing my children will NEVER have to be part of the experiment.
This will ultimately backfire...
Mon, 07/13/2009 - 11:05 — nktrailHow unbelievably sad that this organization is pushing for grading standards to be "dumbed down" for the children they supposedly want to help. This will only "help" them in the short-run to pass classes more easily and perhaps show a better grade point average than they actually earned or deserve. Unfortunately, when they reach the real world of either college or work, no one will be giving them extra time to complete assignments. In the real world, a zero is a zero! If you don't learn the life lesson that hard work = reward in high school, no college professor (and certainly no employer) will be willing to teach it to you.