WakeEd

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The WakeEd blog is devoted to discussing and answering questions about the major issues facing the Wake County school system: the reassignment of thousands of students, the conversion of traditional-calendar schools to a year-round schedule, the district's response to growth and the school construction program.

WakeEd is maintained by The News & Observer's Wake schools reporter, T. Keung Hui. While Keung posts information and analysis on the issues, keep us posted on your suggestions, questions, tips and what you're doing to cope with the changes in Wake's schools.

Asking for more resources for Eastern Wake

Submitted by KeungHui on 11/21/2008 - 07:00

Eastern Wake parents voiced their discontent with the reassignment proposal at Thursday's community engagement meeting.

As noted in today's article, several speakers argued that Eastern Wake schools need more resources. Knightdale High is the only Eastern Wake school whose F&R percentage is under 40 percent.

Assistant Superintendent Chuck Dulaney told speakers it was a question of resources. (Unlike the school board's hearings on reassignment, speakers at CEM meetings will get responses to questions.)

Dulaney said resources are based on what's provided by county commissioners. He urged parents to get more involved in the budget process.

Dulaney said it's easier, for instance, to offer an AP European History class at Green Hope High because there would be enough students interested in the course.

Dulaney said it would be harder to find enough students at Knightdale High to offer that same AP course. It would mean having having to adjust the funding formulas to hire a teacher for the class.

Dulaney said the only ways to provide more resources at a school are to get an across-the-board funding increase or to take money from another school.

Robin Woodlief, the Eastern Wake parent who had led to Dulaney's AP example, had a simple response to him.

"Eastern Wake has rolled over and taken what it’s got for too long,” Woodlief said. "If President Obama is into redistribution of wealth, give that to me. Give me some of Green Hope's. You don't know whether my child would want to take that AP European History class."

As for the crowd, there were around 150 people at Knightdale High. It was about half the crowd that was at Leesville Road High on Monday.

There were more people in the gym for a basketball game than in the auditorium for the CEM meeting. That's even when you factor in the $6 admission charge for the game.

Comments

Is there any alternatives

Mon, 11/24/2008 - 12:57 — NWRaleighMom

Is there any alternatives available if HS does not offer AP courses? Such as taking course in a local college or online?

Good question. Can

Mon, 11/24/2008 - 13:58 — rr77rr99

Good question.

Can someone confirm this.... I was told that when a Wake County high schooler applies to a college, the college app process only "weighs" what classes were available to the applicant.

For example, if X High school only offers two AP courses and the student from X high school took them and got A's, that is the same "weight" as the student who went to IB High School and got to take 12 AP course and aced all of them.

Any truth to this?

I wonder as when new high schools open (ie HSHS and Panther Creek) there is a big void of AP courses. The schools have to "mature" and there has to be a "demand" for them. Unitl then, what happens to the kids who are applying to colleges and are in "competition" with kids from other high schools that have been on the "A" game track all along?

And don't anyone DARE put up here that these kids should apply to a MAGNET! It's a "lottery"....what if they are not ACCEPTED into the magnet and are STUCK in a high school without AP courses? (ask around..it happens!)

College apps

Tue, 11/25/2008 - 22:29 — shank56

We were always told that a top academic school looks at the course load and offerings available -the strongest load available to the applicant- when evaluating a candidate , grades and cousres of study.

If your student goes the "Honors" or academic subject route for the most part when AP courses are readily available, I'd say he/she is not a viable candidate for a major university (UNC, Duke , Wake)- unless he/she can can dunk a basketball (ha ha).

Did you hear this in regard

Mon, 11/24/2008 - 15:27 — NWRaleighMom

Did you hear this in regard to state colleges or any college in the country

It was from a parent that

Mon, 11/24/2008 - 16:23 — rr77rr99

It was from a parent that said they had been to a "college fair"... so I am not sure.

It really does not make sense to me though. I would think a child heavy on AP courses would have an advantage, but I have also heard that colleges are looking at a "diverse" plate of things like community service, club participation, sports, etc.

Just trying to figure it all out.

The AP /Honors class thing is perplexing though . Just wondering if any parents have acutally had any first hand knowledge of this.

oh, and why I am on "rumor"

Mon, 11/24/2008 - 16:25 — rr77rr99

oh, and why I am on "rumor" patrol... Has anyone heard anything about the Senior Project being eliminated from graduation requirement?

I was told this because high schools do not have enough resources to do this. The teacher/advisors are just not there and there's no money to hire them.

What you might be hearing is

Mon, 11/24/2008 - 17:34 — KeungHui (author)

What you might be hearing is that people are dropping the use of the term "senior project." It was leading a lot of kids into thinking that they could wait until their senior year to do the work. The State Board of Education changed all references from senior project to graduation project in the curriculm.

AP Courses

Sat, 11/22/2008 - 12:46 — Chris_H

AP Courses are wonderful have but people must realize that your child should take them because they are really interested in the subject. There are no guarantees that the child will get a good enough grade on the AP test that the college will honor it. Also the classes require quite a bit of work. So if your child is taking more than one and working hard to get a good grade don't expect them to carry a job also. Maybe more than they can handle. The English/Social Studies course require intensive reading and writing assignments and test are very hard. As your child reaches 16 and 17 hopefully they and their parents have a good enough relationship to have a realistic discussion. Will a "good" college look at you if you tank those courses.
All that being said - I think children should have the opportunity to take AP courses if they are willing and able. Does WCPSS actually know that there is low interest in that high school? I would think at a minimum AP English, AP Calc, AP History and an AP Science should be offered in every high school.

It doesn't necessarily depend on location either...

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 17:35 — midtownmom

If you look at the course offerings at all the high school's you will see major differences. There are some base school's that offer Latin, while many schools do not. Some base school's offer AP courses, while some do not. A lot of it depends on student interest. Many school's offer new or different courses during the registration period, and then have to drop them when there are not enough student's signed up to justify the new class. They use the same reasoning for other classes also, from basic academic to honors to AP. Some school's offer ROTC, and some don't. There is no way each high school could offer every course and keep to any kind of budget. Not necessarily fair, but realistic.

APs are not just some

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 20:02 — vsheehan

APs are not just some courses.They are a necessary to get into a good college. High school for most is about getting into college. Not offering APs is hindering kids chances at getting in to good schools. You can go to college with out having done football , ROTC or someother extra but with out AP classes on your transcript your screwed! Hell I know of Kids with 5.0s Great SATs , full APs and they still couldn't get into their state school of choice. Just think if thaose kids couldn't get in what is the chances for some kid who has no APs

Plus if you can take a full load for two years parents can save some money on college.

I'll try to post a

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 18:24 — KeungHui (author)

I'll try to post a comparative list of courses for each high school next week.

My guess is that it was

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 15:58 — jenman

My guess is that it was Chuck D who brought up the Green Hope comparison. He is fixated on the far western wake schools and their low F&R%.

I'm not sure if its as easy as having one teacher in each subj teach an AP class each day. Some schools have 3 or more History/Social Studies AP courses while others have less. If there's only 5 kids who sign up for AP European History will they still offer it?

Lori Millberg is using this discrepancy to suggest that the percentage of random seats set aside for those who don't qualify for any of the magnet 'lottery' rounds be reduced from 10% to 5%. Keung mentioned this somwhere. Millberg's argument is that if the kids who got out of Knightdale HS to go to Enloe had stayed at KHS then they'd have enough kids who would take the AP classes.

They should offer them. If

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 16:32 — vsheehan

They should offer them. If Diversity of economics is what they arelooking for. By not offering the classes people choose not to live in the area. I did. Not that I am the level of economic diversity WCPSS is looking to move into certain schools.

Just like in sports WCPSS should see putting AP classes inwith lowclasssignup as a "Growing Year" . You don't drop your football teamjust because agroupof grandmascould beat them.Instead you keepongoing till you creat or get the talent to fill the team.

Easily found what it takes

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 14:58 — vsheehan

Easily found what it takes to be an AP teacher. Turns out my sister in-laws master in gifted education is not needed. What a teacher needs professionally is NOTHING ! To teach AP courses teachers do not have to meet any standards outside of basic state laws for teacher certification. Below is a cut and past from the College Boards website on the professional background of AP teachers and what will be needed to call a class AP.
“ Here are two points to keep in mind as you participate in the AP Course Audit:
• As always, schools develop their own curricula for courses labeled “AP”. The AP Course Audit simply specifies a set of expectations established by college and university faculty for college-level courses. Courses that meet or exceed these expectations will be authorized to use the “AP” designation.
• The AP Course Audit is not a teacher certification process. There are no educational or professional background requirements to serve as an AP teacher. The College Board recognizes that there are many paths toward becoming an effective AP teacher, and the audit does not review anything about teachers beyond how they are demonstrating on their syllabi the inclusion of the course requirements or a viable alternative”

There would be no need for extra money for a teacher to teach an AP course. All you would need is a different text book and a class syllabus that meets the College Board’s requirement. One KH teacher in each subject could teach one AP class a day. Problem solved no needed to pit KH and GHH parents against each other.
I would love to know who at the meeting first compared GHH to KH. Who started the comparison?

Seems to me.....

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 11:41 — Wuptdo

Seems to me another justification to get rid of the Magnet High Schools and redistribute that funding, minus the few dollars from the Feds, to all the schools.
I understand that principles are into control & discipline of the teachers that work for them. But what if we had a group of AP teachers that "floated" between High Schools? Take that overpaid bureaucrat in charge of the Magnet programs, and make him the "supervisor" of the "floating AP teachers." What an opportunity to bring "change" to WCPSS. Since most of the High Schools are on the "Block" system this is could work. For instance:
AP Cultural Dance Course:
Fall Semester
1st Period - Cary High School
2nd Period - Teachers Break/Drive to Panther Creek HS
3rd Period - Panther Creek HS
4th Period - Panther Creek HS
Spring Semester
1st Period - Cary High School
2nd Period - Cary High School
3rd Period - Teacher Break/Lunch/Drive to PCHS
4th Period - Panther Creek HS

You are so right. . .

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 23:31 — ApexParentofTwo

I mean, after all, teachers do nothing with that planning period but eat Krispy Kremes and socialize, right? They never have any paperwork at all. Not paperloads from their 3 classloads, which would be SOOO limited for an AP teacher and certainly not other types of bureaucratic paperwork, covering classes, lunch duties, IEP meetings (yep, AP teachers have those, too!), parent conferences, department meetings, grade level meetings, planning, preparing, copying, disciplinary documentation. . . Ah, nevermind, it's such a minimal and kushy job that they could easily spend that "free" planning period driving around the county.

First I never said use the

Sat, 11/22/2008 - 06:58 — vsheehan

First I never said use the planning period. I said that instead of one of their other class they teach an AP course. Change the Honors class to an AP class. No one said give up the planning period. Second no one pays attention to Wuptedo when he post obnoixiuse posts. let me appolgise for him.

I am still hoping for someone who was at the meeting to clarify who compared GHH to KH first. Mr Dulane or the parent from KH.

Mr Hui do you know?

Woolief started talking

Mon, 11/24/2008 - 10:14 — KeungHui (author)

Woolief started talking about how the schools in Eastern Wake need more resources. Dulaney said high poverty schools are getting additional funding such as Title I. Then Dulaney brought up the challenges of providing enough more resources, due to the limited funding, to places such as Knightdale High. He brought up the AP example, leading later to Woodlief's response.

Thank you for the answer Mr

Thu, 11/27/2008 - 02:32 — vsheehan

Thank you for the answer Mr hui.

I would like to point out that Cary HS. has student demographics closer to KH then GHH. CH has half the F&R then KH but thats closer then GHH that has 1/3 the F%R that KH has. I bet CH and KH working class and lower M. class student population are closer in numbers ethnicity aside. Cary HS has loads of AP courses. If Cary HS can come up with the students to fill the AP courses then KH probably would too. It would seem picking to compare GHH that has a much higher number of finacialy well off students to KH that does not have as many well off students could be seen as divisive.

Does anyone know, or how do we find out...

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 11:55 — JSBinNC

Just how much funding money are we talking about here? Both from a federal perspective and otherwise - how many actual dollars are spent on magnet programs within WCPSS schools?

And - is there a way to see a school by school breakdown? (i.e. it would be interesting to compare the funding/student population/electives offered/f&r lunch numbers/test scores... I can think of probably 20 different dimensions of "measurement" that would be very intersting to see...)

THEN - how much money is allocated to non-magnet schools? (Or is that just the per student dollar amount I have seen published out here before - can't recall, maybe ~$2500 or something???)

Thanks for any info!

Oh goody now we are going to

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 11:02 — vsheehan

Oh goody now we are going to get into more haves and have not blarney. Who started the comparison between GHHS and KH ?
When we moved here we first looked at the Khightdale area but passed because the highschool did not offer AP courses. By not putting the classes in KH Wake is creating an issue.
By the way my sister in-law teachers in a high F&R population in the boonies of GA and she teaches one AP class a year. Yes the class is small but it was no biggy for the school to higher her with her AP certification and have her teach other science classes most of the day and one AP class. So it wouldn’t cost that much too just hire a new teacher or get an old teacher trained to teach one AP course and the rest of the day general ed classes.

Parents, reject government schools!

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 10:48 — kmisegades

Parents ALWAYS have the option to reject the schools the government provides us. Look around, there are many affordable options in Wake county, home, parochial, private, charter. Take your life into your own hands, start your own school as we did in Apex (Thales Academy), and say goodbye forever to the mediocrity and turmoil of government schools. Your children will love you for it.

How about taking the funding

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 08:58 — rr77rr99

How about taking the funding away from the magnet schools and dividing that up and making all the schools EQUAL in course offerings?

I know, I know, magnet schools get a certain amount of federal funding as well, which helps them function and offer the broader level of courses that the "other" non application county wide taxpayer schools offer.

I am pretty sick and tired of hearing now (the 2009 bribe) that teachers and course offerings will be cut because of limited funds and money WCPSS has to give back.

The money can be "reassigned" from the fuel budget, operating MYR schools that are under enrolled, cutting heating and cooling costs by actually using classroom space inside MYR schools instead of heating and cooling trailers as well as empty classrooms. Allowing for more community based schools so that COMMUNITIES actually do become involved in it takes a "village" concept. Again, with no feeling of "ownership" - in feeling more like a 'prisoner' of the school system, parents have grown weary and dismayed by the whole senario thus taking their time, energy, and money elsewhere.

But, that's a "Chicken Little' perspective. Where the sky isn't falling.. .in your neck of the woods, present the counter.

Funding

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 08:10 — Sideburns

Hui,
How does GHHS get more funding than Knightdale HS other than based on student population? He can't be referring to PTA funds as those can't be used for funding staff positions.

Dulaney's comments about offering AP European History at GHHS and not Knightdale seem more student interest driven rather than a funding problem. If that's the case, then welcome to WCPSS where one school offers paper-making, advanced German and dance while another doesn't even get Spanish.

It is more student driven,

Fri, 11/21/2008 - 08:16 — KeungHui (author)

It is more student driven, but there is also a connection with resoures. Dulaney was telling the parent that resources are so lomited that they don't have enough to adjust the funding formulas to offer courses such as an AP European History class at Knightdale HS when the enrollment would probably be so low. In contrast, schools like Green Hope have enough student interest to meet the current formulas for AP classes. He was saying that, short of more money for all schools, the only way to compensate for the limited resources at a school like Knightdale HS would be to take funding away from another school.

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