The Greater Raleigh Chamber of Commerce and the Wake Education Partnership will release Friday the new student assignment model developed by education consultant Michael Alves.
Alves was hired by business leaders to develop an assignment model that factors in student achievement along with stability, family choice and proximity. The school board has not decided whether it will use the Alves plan, which some critics argue is an attempt to revive the old diversity policy.
Under Alves' controlled-choice plan, parents would rank which schools they'd want their children to attend. School staff would use various factors for determining which choice to give to students.
School staff are working on a plan starting for the 2012-13 school year that would implement on a wider basis the new policy that would send more students to closer schools.
The event will take place at 10 a.m. at the Embassy Suites, 201 Harrison Oaks Blvd. in Cary.
(If you saw the 8 a.m. time that the Independent mentioned today, ignore it. That's when the Chamber's board of directors will hear the plan. The public presentation won't be until 10 a.m.)
Comments
proximity vs. "the best"
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 18:12 — andrewsneeOne problem with all so-called choice models is that the majority of people end up wanting not the closest school but "the best" school -- i.e, whatever school they hear is the best. That school will fill up with the lucky ones who get it and will stay full. Then there will be the second best school, which will also be at capacity, and so on, with the school having the worst reputation being the least populated.
Anyone who moves into that neighborhood zone after the initial free for all and who has a school-age child will, by default, be assigned the "bottom" school, because it's the only one with empty seats at any grade level beyond K. Since this will be the case in every zone, it provides a disincentive for families with school-age children to move to Wake.
Um...
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 18:10 — Bob_SconceAre you sure you're not describing magnet schools?
Sounds like you have it all
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 21:18 — woodstockHow do you know these things? Maybe they should have hired you instead of Alves... and you can even predict the future. Bonus!
Doesn't Alves plan use
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 23:45 — jeffrey1Doesn't Alves plan use student achievement as a factor in the assignment of students to schools? And isn't achievement just a proxy for SES? And isn't SES just a proxy for race?
Even in small Cambridge, MA, where the district has about 10,000 students (1 high school), parents only got their first choice about 75% of the time. Add 130,000 students, and add student achievement ias a factor, and I would guess that only about 50% of parents in Wake would get their first choice.
I'll listen to it, but this plan is probably DOA.
Yep. The old busing policy
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 07:55 — jenmanYep. The old busing policy was unpopular and even though people may not like the new board members, they don't want to go back to busing kids around to achieve some magic number. It crossed party lines and racial lines.
"...parents would rank which
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 08:06 — woodstock"...parents would rank which schools they'd want their children to attend. School staff would use various factors for determining which choice to give to students."
What? And here I thought the term "school choice" referred to parental choice. I did not know it meant that school bureaucrats would be the ones making the choices. Apparently Alves thinks central office staff knows what is best for our children and families. If Alves plan -- developed in secret behind closed doors -- moves forward, parents once again will be disenfranchised.
So you want every family to
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 09:58 — magnetParentSo you want every family to get their 1st choice? Do you realize how insane that is? So if 2000 families identify school A as their first choice, and school A has a capacity for 1000 students, they should all be given their first choice? JT even mentioned listing 3 choices.
Its starting to sound like a bunch of spoiled
childrenparents in here.What If Parents Get No Choice....
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 11:10 — JanisTangoWhat do you recomment if parents list 4 choices and a school is underutilized because the said school is not chosen by enough parents to fill the school? Forced busing?
Well, in the past, Alves
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 11:23 — magnetParentWell, in the past, Alves brought up that very scenario and said that this is the way to identify which schools are "unpopular" and try to determine why, possibly adding some kind of incentive or improvement to that school to bring in more business. Kind of a checks and balances. But if, as many here think, people are likely to be drawn to their closest school, that should not be a problem, right? (unless the school is located in the middle of nowhere like Rolesville I suppose)
Have you seen the Rolesville
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 11:44 — starsonoursHave you seen the Rolesville site? You post about it as if you are knowledgeable about this site and the demographics surrounding it.
We Have Had This Problem For Awhile....
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 11:42 — JanisTangoI agree they need to determine why a school is considered less desirable. This problem has been around for many many years. Someone needs to address it or we will never fill these schools up!
In regards to people being drawn to their closest school, if this choice plan creates a high F&R school because of what the parents choose....that isn't a problem I assume? I just wonder how this plan would address that...tell the parents they can't givem them their choice because the end results wasn't what they want.
So..
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 10:50 — Bob_SconceA good system should have the property that there are no cases where swapping two students would put them both at schools that they preferred more than the ones they were assigned to. As described, the Alves plan doesn't do this.
Hmmm
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 12:14 — Dove314Haven't seen a plan yet that did this. Not the previous assignment plan, not anything articulated by JT, -- not a single one.
Well...
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 13:36 — Bob_SconceI don't think Tedesco's plan prevented this from happening, except across zone boundaries. It's only when you start using preferences other than those of students (to do anything other thank break ties) that it becomes impossible.
Hedging?
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 15:54 — Dove314Are you making the argument that because Tedesco's plan did not specifically preclude this option, it thus included it? Despite Tedesco articulating the identical same parental "prioritize your first 3 choices option" that Mr. Alves has mentioned?
No...
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 17:11 — Bob_SconceMy understanding of Tedesco's plan (such as it was) is that those three choices and individual school capacity would be used to assign students. Basically, the goal was to get every student their first choice, but sometimes a school fills up and the student needs to get their second or third choice. That leads to an assignment where you cannot swap 2 kids and make them both better off. (Proof by induction. I can prove it mathematically if you'd like.)
My understanding of the Alves plan is to get every student their first choice, unless the administration determines that the particular school already has "enough" kids like this student, in which case the student would go to their second choice school. Since you're sometimes overriding the preferences of individual students, that can lead to an assignment where you can swap 2 kids and make them better off.
Funny
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 18:29 — duvalPeople keep refering to Tedesco's plan, but he said many times that there was no plan, it was a process that would take time and it was in the works. It was something that we were all to be creating together.
And Noone With A Lick Of Sense..
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 20:14 — chaboard.....believed a word of it. He even lost his coalition because one member who was in a prime position to know thought he was moving way too fast.
And some of the people that
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 18:33 — starsonoursAnd some of the people that are mentioning JT's plan are the same ones that were asking "Show us the plan?"
So you are looking at
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 10:58 — magnetParentSo you are looking at implementing a Trade Day? And who are the GMs implementing the trade? It seems it could be the principals, with the parents acting as agents. Sounds like complete havoc to me, but nothing surprises me anymore. Hmmm... seems like some money could be made for the schools here....
No...
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 11:54 — Bob_SconceAt a very theoretical level, that sounds like a great idea. At a practical level, it's completely impossible. I was suggesting that the process used to make the decisions should generate those results -- since each student ranks schools, it should be possible. (One algorithm: assign students randomly, then loop through, selecting two students at random and switching them if they each prefer the other's school. Repeat until there are no more trades to be made.)
...
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 10:22 — SideburnsI don't see where woodstock said everyone should get their first choice. His beef is with staff stepping in and placing values on your child and deem them worthy enough to attend the school you choose. No one has ever said that parents should get their first choice -- and you know that.
You should be careful who you are calling spoiled.
Let the school system do
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 10:54 — magnetParentLet the school system do their job. You might know what's best for your child - and by giving your top 3 choices you have identified it to them. They know whats best for the school system as a whole. It's their job. Let them do it.
You can't even agree amongst yourselves what you voted them in for. Is it proximity? is it choice? is it stability? Meanwhile, the school system is falling apart and has lost all focus on what is important - improving achievement for all students.
It's one thing to keep an open dialogue with the parents. But not everybody is going to get their way and this madness has to stop. From lawsuits to save summers, to eliminating Wake Wednesday, to realigning bus schedules, to more lawsuits to complain about calendars - enough of accomodating the parents and get on with building a quality school system.
At the rate this is going, nothing will satisfy enough of the squeaky wheels to get out of first gear.
Let the school system do its
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 11:35 — starsonoursLet the school system do its job... Funny you should say that and then disagree with the BOE whose job it is to run the school system. Let them do their job...
I would like to see the BOE
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 16:30 — magnetParentI would like to see the BOE do their job - their job is to set the policy and provide guidance for the staff to implement the policy. Instead, I see them slipping in changes to assignment to satisfy their neighbors, campaign donors, etc. They are disregarding staff recommendations and running willy nilly. Let the staff implement the policy - let the staff use their expertise and view of the big picture to prevent a train wreck. Are you saying that its the BOE's job to go through each and every list of choices for each and every family and place each student? Is JT and DP (etc) going to sift through all of the applications personally? No, that is the job of the staff. Let them do their job.
I've been following
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 23:38 — jeffrey1I've been following reassignment for more than 10 years. It has always been the case that staff presented the initial plan, and then the board took over and made modifications. Feedback about reassignment proposals generally goes to the board, not staff, so the board is able to make additions/deletions to the plan based on that feedback.
Neither the board nor staff should work independently on each other. Staff generally is concerned with optimization of resources, where the board is generally more concerned with parental input. There's a need for both.
...
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 15:53 — SideburnsYeah, I noticed that too, stars.
"But not everybody is going to get their way and this madness has to stop."
Tell your magnet peeps to simmer down. That would be a good way to stop the madness.
Exactly.
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 10:19 — Dove314JT's plan regarding "choice" was the same as what is purportedly proposed here.
Choice == Zone?
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 16:53 — magnetParentYesterday, I posted a link to a video done by NBC17 regarding the neighborhood schools in Charlotte. In that video, they interviewed Chris Malone for his response to their findings.
http://www2.nbc17.com/news/2011/feb/07/neighborhood-schools-charlotte-10-years-later-ar-763038/
What he said made my head spin:
Reporter: Are we on the path to dismantle integrated schools?
CM: We're not Charlotte, we never purported to be Charlotte, and yes we're similar in size and they went down, somewheres down the road that we are going now, I agree with that. But we don't have a choice model. We're neighborhood schools, we're going to go to community schools, we are going to go to zones.
Reporter: But Chris, you just said, you are going down the same road as Charlotte
CM: Right
Reporter: And will you be creating more high poverty schools in pockets of wake county with your plan?
CM: Our zone plan, in our estimation, will create fewer, not more. True neighborhood schools, I can't say to that, cause that is not what we are trying to do - We are trying to go to zone plan.
So... my impression all this time was JT's plan was a choice model. And here CM is saying we are not headed down the road to Charlotte because they have a choice model and we do not... BUT isn't JTs zone plan the same thing?
He obviously misspoke early
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 20:27 — eddie2He obviously misspoke early in the interview when he said something about not having a choice model. Later, he said it's silimar to an Alves model, which is a choice model, and he talked about setting up "regions" composed of "zones," to expand the possible choices if the base zone doesn't offer enough choices.
Not a good interview. Seemed rushed.
Rushed?
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 21:50 — magnetParentRushed? Why don't you just blame the cold medicine - he obviously had the sniffles. :-/
No, he just doesn't spin as well as JT. Besides, I don't think he really knows what JTs plan is.
I thought this was an
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 23:12 — ksinclairI thought this was an excellent piece by Kim Genardo. The fact about how fast the number of CMS high poverty and racially segregated schools grew after implementing neighborhood schools should give us pause, if not scare us silly. I could not ascertain from the interview whether Mr. Malone really could explain what Charlotte or Wake was doing.
Unfortunately, it seems like
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 23:24 — magnetParentUnfortunately, it seems like Mr. Malone was simply blowing it off instead of using it as something to learn from. Then again, he was talking in circles so perhaps you are right that he did not understand the full severity of the situation.
I had posted another link to a news article that provided links to Charlotte's cost per student for each individual school. There is a marked difference in cost for the high poverty schools.
Here is the spreadsheet:
http://www.cms.k12.nc.us/sites/agenda/Lists/Agenda%20Items/Attachments/355/3%20-%20Per%20Pupil%20Expenditure%20Report2.pdf
The Charlotte situation is
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 23:52 — ksinclairThe Charlotte situation is one we should learn from. The closing of the inner City schools recently was a travesty---but necessary to preserve the weighted student staffing they have. They literally had to choose between buildings and teachers for these kids. This is the cost of high poverty schools, and everyone needs to understand that this is the path we are on.
Do your research! The
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 00:14 — jeffrey1Do your research!
The schools that are closing in Charlotte are not being closed because of enrollment problems. Nearly all of the schools being closed are at or near capacity.
The problem is that they are all small schools. And they are all very old schools. The maintenance costs of keeping those schools open are extremely high, especially on a per student basis. You're right, they had to choose between buildings and teachers, but that's because the cost of maintaining those buildings were disproportionally higher than maintaining bigger, newer schools.
The school closings in Charlotte have nothing to do with their assignment policy.
that's because the cost of
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 00:24 — ksinclairthat's because the cost of maintaining those buildings were disproportionally higher than maintaining bigger, newer schools.
I argue it's to maintain the
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 00:34 — jeffrey1I argue it's to maintain the WSS (weighted student staffing) required to keep these students at basic achievement levels.
I don't see any evidence of this in anything that I have read regarding the school closings. If you have read otherwise, I'd be interested.
According to the Char-Meck
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 07:59 — magnetParentAccording to the Char-Meck reports, here are the schools that are closing and their per-student expediture and rank (1 being the most expensive):
School cost rank
Waddell High $6796 4
Spaugh $7318 2
Williams $7228 3
Wilson $7234 4
Irwin $6347 26
Lincoln Hts $8663 3
Oakhurst $5992 37
Pawtcukett $8252 5
Winding Springs $5795 45
Amay James $7504 3
Davidson IB Middle $6432 5
Smith Language $5125 16
As you can see, most of them rank pretty high on the cost.
The data came from:
http://www.cms.k12.nc.us/sites/agenda/Lists/Agenda%20Items/Attachments/355/3%20-%20Per%20Pupil%20Expenditure%20Report2.pdf
if you want to take a look.
And what makes you think
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 14:56 — jeffrey1And what makes you think they won't continue to spend the same amount of money on those students as they are moved to other schools.
All these schools are relatively small, and it's an "economies of scale" issue, whether we're talking about building maintenance or staffing.
Because most of these
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 16:20 — magnetParentBecause most of these schools are FOCUS schools.
An updated look of the table:
School cost rank F&R Notes
------ ----- ---- --- ------
Waddell High $6796 4 79% FOCUS
Spaugh $7318 2 93% FOCUS
Williams $7228 3 97% FOCUS
Wilson $7234 4 90% FOCUS
Irwin $6347 26 84% FOCUS
Lincoln Hts $8663 3 86% FOCUS
Oakhurst $5992 37 69%
Pawtucket $8252 5 86% FOCUS
Winding Springs $5795 45 64%
Amay James $7504 3 89% pre-k
Davidson IB $6432 5 19%
Smith Language $5125 16 33%
So the schools that were more expensive, coincidentally also high poverty and also FOCUS schools, are being closed/moved. The FOCUS schools are defined as having a smaller student/teacher ratio, additional instructional supplies and teacher incentives. They are laying off many of the teachers of these closed schools - Do you think these students will remain in a small student/teacher ratio class at their new school?
BTW - The only two schools specifically mentioned as being in a small building were Pawtucket and Oakhurst.
Included in those per
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 16:48 — jenmanIncluded in those per student figures are Title 1 and any Grant money. Also, any services associated with LEP/ESL or IEPs that require an extra assistant or extra supplies.
Another thing to consider is that some things are fixed, no matter how big or small a school is, such as the principal. If there are only 300 kids in an elem school, the cost per student of the principal's salary will be higher than it is at a school that has 600 students.
There is more to look at than just that $ per student figure. To get a better feel for how this compares to WCPSS, we'd need to see the same breakdown for our schools. We'd probably also find that some of our schools spend much more per student than others do. How much does it cost per student to occupy some of our older, smaller schools in neighborhoods that have aged out? How much does it cost per pupil to operate our year round schools that are at 75% capacity?
Of the schools that are closing, Oakhurst is at 93% capacity, Winding Springs is 117%, Amay Jones is 107%, Davidson IB Middle 111% and Smith Language is 154%. It also appears that the Smith Language program (K-9) is being to moved to the Waddell High building.
The numbers from CMS are good starting point and I definitely think it is worth investigating, but there is much more to it than just the figures from that chart. Lots more information that needs to be gathered before we can make a proper comparison or analysis.
I agree. There is a lot more
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 17:08 — jeffrey1I agree. There is a lot more going on here than "we just decided to close the high poverty schools." Like Wake, CMS is facing a huge budget shortfall. Sure they are laying off teachers, but I haven't seen anything that suggests they are taking away resources from FOCUS students any more than they are taking away resources from all students.
The cost savings that have been identified with closing these schools are costs associated with the operation and maintenance of the building, not the costs associated with the personnel in those schools.
To suggest that these schools were closed because they were severely underenrolled due to white flight associated with CMS student assignment policies is not accurate.
A little more insight on CMS
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 17:48 — magnetParentA little more insight on CMS and the factors it considers regarding closing schools:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/05/16/1438577/which-cms-schools-will-close.html
Among many
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 19:41 — jeffrey1Among many considerations:
With money for renovations also drying up, older buildings in need of major repairs could be in the bull's-eye. Gorman and Davis have speculated that CMS could move popular magnets housed in dilapidated schools into newer, bigger buildings, eliminating renovation costs and making more seats available.
Between that article (thanks
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 20:01 — jenmanBetween that article (thanks for posting, magnetparent) and the info on the CMS website, I really like the process that CMS used. It seems that they really got creative and put all options out there on the table to consider. Reconfiguring grade levels, moving programs, closing schools, etc. Laura Evans seems to be moving this way at least somewhat with her request for a magnet program review and the mention of changing grade configurations at some schools. We need to get serious and instead of thinking 'this is the way it's done', we need to be willing to adapt to better use our capacity and save some money.
Reading the CMS BOE Meeting
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 21:04 — magnetParentReading the CMS BOE Meeting minutes and articles, it seems like they are nowhere close to completing their budget reduction - the scary thing is they are way ahead of us in the process.
there is no "JT plan" zone
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 17:05 — AngelaWthere is no "JT plan" zone or other remember? Goldman nixed it. and now believes that the entire BoE "supports community schools"....that's HER plan (and she thought Hill's and Sutton's)...you know the one that she wanted to hear from "every inch of the county"? that one....
Not according to Chris
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 17:29 — magnetParentNot according to Chris Malone... move on.
JT's Plan...
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 11:18 — JanisTangowas not perfect in my mind. I saw issues with his plan. This plan is going to have the same issues so why is everyone that was against John's plan thinking this is going to solve everything. Are those same issues not important anymore just because John didn't come up with it?
I think it is important to
Tue, 02/08/2011 - 11:22 — woodstockI think it is important to point out that Tedesco's "plan" was in preliminary draft form and was still in the process of gathering significant public/communuty input. Alves plan has not even the seen the light of day and was devised in entirely in secret behind closed doors.