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WakeEd
The WakeEd blog is devoted to discussing and answering questions about the major issues facing the Wake County school system: the reassignment of thousands of students, the conversion of traditional-calendar schools to a year-round schedule, the district's response to growth and the school construction program.
WakeEd is maintained by The News & Observer's Wake schools reporter, T. Keung Hui. While Keung posts information and analysis on the issues, keep us posted on your suggestions, questions, tips and what you're doing to cope with the changes in Wake's schools.
2008 state report cards online
The new 2008 N.C. School Report Cards went online this morning.
Click here to reach the web site. Information is available on a number of areas, including a school’s test scores, graduation rate, teacher quality, school safety and access to new technology.
Parents can compare the data for individual schools with districtwide and state results.
T. Keung Hui
T. Keung Hui covers Wake schools.
Comments
no F&R? why..? and how they
Tue, 09/15/2009 - 09:37 — tj_linkerno F&R? why..? and how they survive..?
www.stoppayingppcads.com
I took the data for the
Sat, 01/31/2009 - 11:28 — user1234I took the data for the surrounding counties below.
I created an index1=ED+NED+LEP and
index2=%pass per total dollar spent to compare counties
I created an index to measure the spead in ED and NED performance. The greater the spread the greater the disparity.
Data (paste into spreadsheet and parse)
county local state federal total ed ned lep index index_per_total ned2ed
Johnston 1785 5481 634 7900 37.3 69.3 23.4 130 0.016 1.86
Wake 2440 5180 497 8117 31.3 74.5 22.7 129 0.016 2.38
Orange 3679 5598 519 9796 32.4 67.9 25.3 126 0.013 2.10
State 2075 5616 830 8521 33.3 66.9 19.8 120 0.014 2.01
Chatham 3399 5557 812 9768 33.5 66.9 18.3 119 0.012 2.00
Granville 1611 5674 676 7961 30.9 59.2 19.5 110 0.014 1.92
Franklin 1600 5636 901 8137 31.9 62.9 14.1 109 0.013 1.97
Harnett 1450 5622 831 7903 30.9 59.9 17.7 109 0.014 1.94
Durham 3176 5619 904 9699 20.8 55.5 13.8 90 0.009 2.67
Findings
Wake spending per student is middle of the pack
Johnston spends the least but gets the most return
ED - Durham does the worst and Johnston the best
NED - Wake lead the pack and Durham is a laggard
LEP - Orange leads and Durham lags
Overall - Johnston and Wake lead and Durham lags far behind
Difference in Wake and Johnston is Wake does better with NED and Johnston does better with ED.
Johnston and Wake get the most total performance per total dollar spent
Johnston has the least NED to ED spread and Wake has one of the highest
Spending
local total
Orange 3679 9796
Chatham 3399 9768
Durham 3176 9699
State 2075 8521
Franklin 1600 8137
Wake 2440 8117 (mid pack, one of the lower $/student)
Granvill 1611 7961
Harnett 1450 7903
Johnston 1785 7900
Total performance and spread
Index $perIndex NED2ED
Johnston 130 0.016 1.86
Wake 129 0.016 2.38
(Wake 0.016 %pass per dollar spent, 2.38 ratios in NED to ED, Wake has a high disparity between NED and ED)
Orange 126 0.013 2.10
State 120 0.014 2.01
Chatham 119 0.012 2.00
Granvill 110 0.014 1.92
Franklin 109 0.013 1.97
Harnett 109 0.014 1.94
Thank you
Sat, 01/31/2009 - 11:36 — FalcThank you for running and posting the information.
No Problem ... I will be
Sat, 01/31/2009 - 17:34 — user1234No Problem ... I will be interested to see how others interpet the data and comparisons. Each time I look at information like this, I am impressed with Johnston country. They seem to do a lot with little.
Yes, they do
Sun, 02/01/2009 - 16:16 — Falc"They seem to do a lot with little."
Yes, they do and so do other places.
However, I'm guessing that the supportwcpss types will say that it is not a fair comparison and just another isolated "feel good" example. Afterall, Johnston county's district is smaller and somehow urban poor and more rural-type poor (I disagree) are not comparable and... you get the picture.
Heaven forbid, WCPSS should stop and look at how Johnston county and others do it and see if we can learn something from them or use some of what they do here. Better to just keep bussing, afterall it may be all that is keeping WCPSS from being much worse than mediocre at serving its ED students.
Johnston County not only
Sat, 01/31/2009 - 17:55 — vsheehanJohnston County not only meets Fed Reg for Special Ed they go beyond it. The services that I heard people get offered in JC reminds me of MA. People I know were offered so much they turn down some services!!!
I'm ready to move!
Sat, 01/31/2009 - 19:51 — g88ky07we'll be moving there within 3 years at the current rate of economics and education in Wake County!
RIGHT BEFORE we would be mandatorily reassigned to a new division of Chucky's Utopia 8 times further than what our school then would be today!
Hello Sherriff Bizzell!!!!
why wait
Sun, 02/01/2009 - 23:19 — supportwcpssDon't let the door hit you on the way out.
Thanks
Mon, 02/02/2009 - 09:23 — g88ky07I appreciate positive people.
No problem
Mon, 02/02/2009 - 09:41 — supportwcpssI figured the only method of communication with you was on your level. And of course Dad3 decides to chime in and pontificate - of course his only goal is to use as many multisyllable words as he can.
Dictionaries and thesauruses are AWESOME
Mon, 02/02/2009 - 11:56 — Dadof3I love being tweaked like that on an ed blog. Everyone else knows my goal here.
Here's a big bugs-bunny kiss for YOU! <<smooch!>>
Come on .. too much loving
Mon, 02/02/2009 - 12:29 — user1234I spent an hour looking up and typing in every surrounding county and an hour trying to understand how to paste it so it formatted.
I wanted to hear how people interpreted the data. For example, the disparity between ED and NED in Wake is striking. Wake does really well with NED kids. So, one approach would be mix the ED/NEDs up and bring down the NED from way above average in hopes of bringing up the ED or put all the ED in special school and treat their special needs in one place. Two controversial approaches.
Also, if you were a business and trying to get the most output per $ spent, you might look at Johnston county who does not do as well as Wake overall (because of our NED overachievement) but Johnston gets more passing % per $ spent which is what taxpayers might want … meet the bar at the lowest cost … not great for kids in school wanting to go places though ….
And why does Wake spend so little per student compared to the surrounding counties. Why would we expect to pay less and get more? We don't seem to be throwing money at education in Wake compared to the level of passion people seem to have.
Approaches
Mon, 02/02/2009 - 13:26 — Falc"one approach would be mix the ED/NEDs up and bring down the NED from way above average in hopes of bringing up the ED"
Seems that mixing is what has been tried, but it is not bringing the ED up
BTW - I was AG at a 60-70% ED ES and do not feel that I was brought down or held back in any way. This is due to the classroom structure and teaching methods used. I'm not so sure NED must go down in order for ED to go up.
"put all the ED in special school and treat their special needs in one place"
Not all ED, or NED, are the same. Some my ED friends were honor students, some were average students, and some were remedial. I know at least 10 students with learning disabilities and "other impaired", not one of them is ED. Also, 25% of NED did not pass the EOGs. That is one of my big issues with the current policy. It assumes all ED kids are high needs and all NED kids are not. What about the kids that do fit the stereotype for their group?
Third possibility? Try keeping school popluations more stable, let the school figure out what the needs of their particular student mix are and then figure out how to best meet them. Look at and learn from practices that are working elsewhere.
"Wake does really well with NED kids"
I would hope so considering this area has one of the highest PhD rates in the country and double the per capita college grads of a lot of areas, not to mention the colleges and universities in the area. It seems a decent percentage of NED parents place an emphasis on their children's learning (i.e. read to them regularly) and being in Raleigh students have greater access to museums than other areas.
Lack of funding? May be a mix of the function of the population (Wake has many younger singles) and the strife around the school system (i.e. most of the public attention is on the disagreements between those who support WCPSS as is and those who want to see changes).
So...
Mon, 02/02/2009 - 13:39 — supportwcpssYou want to make the correlation between NED parents and emphasis on learning and performance but you want to break out the correlation of ED with high risk and low performing kids. Sounds confusing to me.
Also, I think letting each and every school determine how to deal with their kids is a disaster waiting to happen on so many levels. Talk about a disparity in schools.
Hmm..
Mon, 02/02/2009 - 17:38 — Bob_SconceRe: your last point. You have to let the people closest to a problem solve it. A policy that's good in Wendell may not work downtown.
Correlation was education level
Mon, 02/02/2009 - 15:11 — FalcThe correlation was education level not economic status. There is a higher percentage of college educated parents here, especially with advanced degrees.
So, you think education is a one size fits all? Do you think that the same teaching methods should be used at a 10% LI and a 60% LI school? Do you think AG, average and remedial students all learn the same way and should be taught the same thing, at the same time, in the same way? Do you believe in a national curriculum? Do you think principals and staff are not capable of determining how to teach their students?
Wow, am I glad you did not run my school district! I would have hated my ES experience instead of loving it.
supportwcpss
Mon, 02/02/2009 - 10:12 — vsheehanWho peed in your grits today?
Wot? WHat was that for a
Wed, 05/20/2009 - 03:05 — tolo87Wot? WHat was that for a question. Mike
Jump higher program
yeh not necessary
Thu, 07/16/2009 - 21:34 — Helmethead3nah mike, not like that - Tom from jump higher
stay classy, WCPSS
Mon, 02/02/2009 - 06:59 — fiestamomNice.
More like...
Mon, 02/02/2009 - 07:45 — Dadof3It's more like "battle of the pot and kettle -- who's more oxidized?"
An interesting difference is that g88 has no pretense about being civil.
will try again .. formating error
Sat, 01/31/2009 - 10:00 — user1234blank
Angela I need your help.
Sat, 01/31/2009 - 08:38 — vsheehanAngela I need your help. Another Email group that deals with the education of African American students brought up the fact that it looks like the gap between ethnicities that lagged behind other ethnicities has grown. This perception is based off of the new NC report cards. I hate states I was wondering if you would run the numbers to see if this is true, please. You do not have to but your expertise with stats shines in all your posts and we could use your help.
I see in these posts that some have done a preliminary stat check on the numbers but we need a more complete set of numbers. Please could you help?
Test scores follow election cycles
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 12:23 — Eric_BAnyone notice that improvements in EOG test scores follow the 4 year election cycles? Bill Lynch pointed this out to me and showed proof.
Look at the improvements between 96-97, 97-98 and 98-99, between 01-02 and 02-03 and between 05-06 and 06-07. Timed perfectly to make those in power look good. Of course test changes are timed so that the poor results are released in off years. Now that the election is over, we get to see these lower results.
yes they do...and the tests
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 12:30 — AngelaWyes they do...and the tests were "re-normed" to bring them more in line with other states, BTW. NC tests in comparision were far lower.
Everyone keep in mind the
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 12:05 — ncarolinagirlEveryone keep in mind the reading test was changed last year to make it harder just as the math test was changed the year before. This caused alot of the scores to go down, which is why alot of schools look like they've gotten worse the past 2 years. I'm not syaing they haven't gotten worse, but keep in mind the changes in the tests are reflected in the lower scores. Several years ago, many of the now Schools of Distinction were Schools of Excellence when the tests were easier. Another thing I noticed was there was a pretty big discrepancy between my child's reading EOG score and her Iowa reading/verbal score. She did 15% better on the Iowa than the EOG. Did anyone else see this?
We can still look at the trends
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 14:28 — FalcAs the test was changed statewide, it still seems valid to compare the district trend to the state trend of percentages that passed both reading and math.
2001-02 District: ED - 61.4, NED - 90.6, LEP - 53.0; State: ED - 59.3, NED - 84.9, LEP - 46.2
2004-05 District: ED - 68.8, NED - 93.3, LEP - 56.2; State: ED - 68.3, NED - 89.9, LEP - 49.7
2007-08 District: ED - 31.3, NED - 74.5, LEP - 22.7; State: ED - 33.3, NED - 66.9, LEP - 19.8
So, in 2001-02 the district ED group outperformed the state; then in 2004-05, after busing, it was basically even; and now in 2007-08, after more bussing and shuffling thousands (tearing them repeatedly away from their school communities), the district ED group underperforms the state and the ED/ NED gap is larger than ever. And yet, the bussing supporters are SO sure it is working that they do not need a study? Really?
And here come the excuses - population growth, rural poor isn't comparable to urban poor, the CCs, the uncaring parents, the district size, equal treatment is unequal, those pesky parents, traffic issues, those uncooperative town leaders, those hard to please parents, the sun shines here less, the private schools, land use conflicts, the test changes, the the the...
How about instead WCPSS stops and says Wow we do not appear to making progress under this policy. What can we do better? Are there better alternatives? Better approaches? What could we do if we spent our time focused on learning instead of school assignments? What could happen if we didn't alienate so many parents?
Eh...
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 17:33 — Bob_SconceThe problem is that we only see one side of the argument -- the other side can always says "But, it would be even worse without the diversity policy." ("Can you imagine what the economy would look like if we hadn't done TARP?")
The real question is to look at what happened with the other big district in the state. Here are Wake's v Char/Meck's numbers:
01-02: WCPSS ED - 61.4 LEP - 53.0 CMS ED - 51.4 LEP - 44.2
04-05: WCPSS ED - 68.8 LEP - 56.2 CMS ED - 64.2 LEP - 46.9
07-08: WCPSS ED - 31.3 LEP - 22.7 CMS ED - 31.1 LEP - 21.5
Now, that's just a single district comparison, so you can't take it for too much. BUT, considering all the grief that CMS has had for abandoning its busing strategy, CMS doesn't appear to be suffering -- its ED & LEP numbers, which used to be noticiably worse than Wake's are now comprable.
Who needs another study?
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 15:26 — shearertwWho needs another study? You just did all the research that is necessary.
Lots of bussing = no significant improvement at best
Time to try something else.
REsearch
Wed, 09/09/2009 - 16:51 — farhajLatest and updated information can aonly be found out through Rsearch..and playig online for gambling is not worthy and a decent act.
sea grass|sea weed
What if...
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 16:26 — supportwcpssThe diversity policy leads to a 'hold our head above water' or a status quo and will never improve those scores, but instead the alternative could be much worse. What if you did study it (even thought I doubt you could do it in a controlled and valid way like you all think it's so easy to do), and the results showed no increase. What if the alternative is that the schools which would have high F&R would decline significantly.
If that happened would you all step up to the plate to help? I think not.
So -- What if....
Sat, 01/31/2009 - 08:23 — Voice_of_Reason_- We keep throwing money after a failed policy?
- What if the school system handled high F&R schools differentely by trying other methodology? (partially funded by Title I money (instead of using it to pay bonuses)).
- What if funding gets tough and we need to really evaluate how we can save money? What programs do you want to cut? Sorry, this is probably a non "what if" question any more.
- What if you stop looking at success in high F&R schools at the school level and start looking at F&R kid's performance at the system level?
- (sarcasm) What if you learned to use question marks?(/sarcasm off)
BTW - Step up to the plate? Don't we pay taxes? Don't non-F&R parents pay more taxes than F&R parents? Is it our responsibility (or is it WCPSS?) to help schools at other than a monetary level that our children don't go too? Are F&R parents unable to help their own? Isn't that the real solution, can't the school system assist?
IDEALISM DOESN'T SOLVE PROBLEMS, IT ONLY MAKES YOU CLOSE YOUR EYES TO REALITY IN TRYING TO FIND SOLUTIONS! Human nature is very, very, hard to change.
Are you saying
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 22:26 — FalcAre you saying that you think that the only possible outcomes are "status quo" or "much worse"? That the best that a county with a median income $15K above the state median can do is barely "hold our head above water" and that we can't get our ED to outperform the state? If so, why?
Sorry, but I was raised on the belief that "there is no such thing as no can do", so I'm going to keep believing that we could do better.
Have you ever looked at some of the reassignments? They move high F&R node "A" currently at school "A" to school "C", meanwhile high F&R node "B", which is next to node "A" and currently at school "B", is moved to the slots at school "A" vacated by node "A". Can you please explain the sense in that? How does that help?
At this point, many of the assignments seem not to be about getting a 65% F&R school to 30%, but about getting a 40% school to 30% because the school down the road is 28%. Is it really worth it for kids to lose stability over that? That is what I would like an answer to. How is a 30-40% school supposed to have a long-term positive impact on "at risk" students when they get a different set of students every year or two? That is what I would like an answer to. What do you think the long-term impact will be of "non-F&R" flight out of WCPSS because they are tired of having their kids reassigned or forced into MYR/different schedules? That is what I would like an answer to. What about the F&R kids that live within near a magnet, but are assigned to a 30% F&R school 10 miles away? That is what I would like an answer to.
No increase over what?
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 17:41 — Bob_SconceIs this your question:
If I could scientifically show that abandoning the diversity policy had no effect on the performance of poor students, but that it would lead to schools with a lot of poor students (and thus poor test scores by the school as a whole), would I "step up to the plate to help"?
Help do what? Considering that none of those kids would be any worse off than they were before the switch, what should I do differently than I do now?
In any case, I think that abandoning the diversity policy might marginally improve the performance of previously-bused kids. An extra hour a day on a school bus cannot have a positive effect on a kid's ability to do homework.
To my cranky old friend
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 17:03 — Dadof3Your strawman "you all" is convenient rhetoric but doesn't reflect discussion here. We're split on the value of a study -- I've been clear that studies can be whatever you want them to be. On a more core level, the problem isn't a nip-n-tuck of this system, it is to tear it down -- to scrap it and to replace it with smaller systems that better reflect the communities they serve.
I don't engage in the soft racism that some communities are incapable of improving themselves, so I don't buy into the scare tactic of calamity without MacGregor's or Preston's help (I live in neither) -- it reminds me of the scare tactics prior to Clinton removing the welfare programs in the mid-90s. Co-dependency ends when you stop enabling. It works when you work it. All that AA stuff applies to this situation. Besides we can bicker all we want on the value of social engineering -- all while education rots on the vine.
Finally a note of irony -- most of the parents here spend a couple hours each week at their children's schools, at least that. We care because we are engaged, not vice-versa. Supporting education and supporting WCPSS are divergent goals for the time, I'm afraid.
What if the alternative is
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 16:52 — Eric_BWhat if the alternative is that the schools which would have high F&R would decline significantly.
If that happened would you all step up to the plate to help? I think not.
---
The high F&R schools receive additional Title I funds that should be used to improve the school and teachers at these schools should receive additional bonuses for success under more difficult circumstances.
Student achievement should be properly measured for F&R students at a school vs. the F&R students districtwide or statewide. If low-income students at such a school are doing well compared to similar students elsewhere in WCPSS, teachers should receive larger bonuses. This is the only way achievement gaps will start to be closed.
If the school does not achieve results for low income students, parents are already allowed school choice to send their kids elsewhere under NCLB. The solution for parents is already there. It's then the district's problem to make sure these kids' needs are met. Under the current diversity policy, the kids can be spread around and ignored.
Yeah....
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 13:33 — Bob_SconceSo, either the tests were too lax before and the schools have always been doing a medicre job, or the tests were fine before and are now too strict, in which case the Dept. of Ed. doesn't know what it's doing.
I love the state board's response to the declining scores "We should count it if somebody passes on the second go-round." In other words, "These scores make our schools look really bad. Let's give them a do-over." It took 7 months to find out scores from the first go-round -- by the time they get through the re-testing and re-scoring, the kids will have gone up 2 grades!
Remove the Spam post?
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 08:40 — shank56Keung,
Can the webmaster remove the SPAM posts?
Done.
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 09:58 — KeungHui (author)Done.
still there:(
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 20:10 — local23..
as someone who has
Thu, 01/29/2009 - 23:47 — Bromhalas someone who has consistently told incoming families to look down into the numbers, not just the top....wow. Yay for the LEP's at Stough - they actually outscored the District average!
Who is LEP other than the Hispanics (who also let Chuck down)? And I ask that as an innocent and serious question. Some of the Asian/PacIsl? Cause they're 8 points below the average.
Well... Knowing Stough's
Fri, 01/30/2009 - 09:46 — NWRaleighMomWell... Knowing Stough's obcession with test scores, it is possible they granted LEP status to the kids who didn't really need it...
Several years ago a boy from Stough came to my daughter's private K. According to his parents, school put him in a Special Ed class ('He will bring our test scores down'). He had IEP since he was 3 (late talker, some mild autistic tendencies ) but performed perfectly well in his new school.
Beverley Clark - What Are You Thinking?
Thu, 01/29/2009 - 18:51 — lacymomBeverley Clark is my district's board member and she had the audacity to say that our kids will get an excellent education at Stough?
This can only mean she has not looked at Stough's test scores. Stough is a woefully underperforming school that is below the State and district average scores while Lacy scores above average.
Our own school board member wants to take our children out of a high performing school and put them at Stough. And thinks it's an excellent idea.
As a district we entrusted her with the future of our children when we went to the ballot box. She shows no regard for it. And less for us if she thinks we will ever view an underperforming school as an "excellent" place for our children to get an education.
Way to go, Beverley Clark. In this household, you have taken two diehard proponents of public education and are running them off to private schools. Our children matter more to us than to allow this.
As for Stough's scores? Based on the comments of my neighbors, don't look for those to change. Because many children, like mine, simply won't be there.
It depends on how one defines "excellent"
Thu, 01/29/2009 - 20:33 — FalcIt appears that only 23 of 96 ES schools in Wake County met AYP and Stough is a School of Progress just like 67% of Wake County schools. WCPSS supporters keep saying how great WCPSS is and they don't need any studies. By their definition Stough is excellent.
My understanding is that Stough was actually excellent until it was impacted by reassignment some years ago.
At least maybe once all the schools are equally excellently average, they will slow down on reassignments for balancing.
user1234 thinks our schools
Thu, 01/29/2009 - 20:46 — CaryCurmudgeonuser1234 thinks our schools are already all above average, compared to each other.
I guess that means we will
Thu, 01/29/2009 - 19:58 — vsheehanI guess that means we will not be seeing you at Moore Square either?
Look at the test scors for
Thu, 01/29/2009 - 17:47 — vsheehanLook at the test scors for Raleigh Charter. The scores are high for all ethnic groups. There isn't any F&R though.
Why don't they have any
Thu, 01/29/2009 - 21:50 — user1234Why don't they have any F&R's? Do they screen them out? Should they have some if they are going to take public money? I am surprised they can get away with that.
Simple explanation...
Thu, 01/29/2009 - 22:45 — Eric_BSimple explanation... They don't participate in the federal free & reduced lunch program. Many charter schools, like Magellan and others, do not even have cafeterias.
Sorry, there's no way to discriminate based on F&R numbers...
“Look at the test scores
Thu, 01/29/2009 - 19:01 — user1234“Look at the test scores for Raleigh Charter. The scores are high for all ethnic groups. There isn't any F&R though.”
Look atCary Academy Cary Academy