Lisa Stuckey, Chapel Hill-Carrboro school board member, asked last week why we publish unsigned blog comments in The Chapel Hill News. She noted that we require names on our letters to the editor, but when we publish comments from the OrangeChat blog in the print paper, we let people use screen names (which are usually not the writers' first and last names). Why the double standard, she wanted to know.
I contacted N&O public editor Ted Vaden, a former publisher of The Chapel Hill News. He said he had asked about the use of screen names on blogs himself and had been told this was a standard industry practice. Many readers who comment on blogs expect they can do this without putting their names to it and perhaps would not do so otherwise.
We have been publishing some of our blog comments in the newspaper because they are newsworthy. We post news in the blog that does not always fit into the News & Observer or Chapel Hill News, and readers' comments are often interesting and enrich the conversation. We try not to publish any comments that are cheap shots or could be offensive.
But I wonder if Stuckey has a point. I know N&O executive editor John Drescher shares this concern. Right now, I'm leaning to restricting published comments to those signed by the writer or submitted by writers whose screen names are their names (like Mark Marcoplos, one of our frequest bloggers). The blog itself would continue to allow screen names, but to read posts in the Blogbits columns in the actual newspaper, we would need actual names. Perhaps this would even be an incentive for some people to sign their comments since the newspaper readership is many times larger than the blog audience.
What do you think?
Mark



Comments
Your policy doesn't match your technology
Wed, 09/24/2008 - 20:16 — rubyjiI see in the paper (why not on the blog?) that you've decided to start printing only comments with real names on them. The problem with this is that A) your software doesn't allow users to change their names, I will forever be "rubyji" unless I start a new account, and B) you have no way of knowing whether the full name I give is really mine. What if I start signing my posts "John Kramer" or "Jessie Beard?" The only real thing you have verified is my e-mail address, which may or may not hint at my identity.
= Ruby Sinreich
You *could* learn from blogs
Wed, 09/17/2008 - 14:54 — rubyjiWhile you are discussing netiquette, can we please get the terms right? Mark Marcoplos is not "one of our frequest bloggers." He is a frequent COMMENTER. The difference is especially important when we discuss credibility as there is a different standard on most sites for what you will publish as a blog entry and what you will allow to be published as a comment.
I spent a lot of time wrestling with the same issues when launching the new platform for OrangePolitics last December. The more transparent their identity, the more credibility any participant will have. But there are arguments (as have been stated above) for obscuring one's identity in sensitive situations. That's why I allow people to post comments anonymously, but submit each one to a very high standard of scrutiny before publishing it.
Anyone who visits the site can see that dissent is alive and well there. The only folks who find their participation curtailed are those who are intentionally disruptive or misleading. (Such as Elvisboy, a.k.a. John Kramer, a.k.a. Jessie Beard for all I know.)
It does amaze me that after spending years de-legitimzing blogs, newspapers are suddenly trying to emulate us. Yet they continue to ignore and not learn from our experiences.
= Ruby Sinreich, OrangePolitics.org
I can understand why some
Thu, 09/11/2008 - 12:31 — Anita Badrock (not verified)I can understand why some people don't use their names. Will, Fred, and I all benefit from being essentially self employed or employed by companies who aren't engaging in particularly controversial business. And I know, because of the work I do, that there are retaliatory employers out there. Some of them are pretty ruthless about getting rid of people who stir the pot or have strong opinions that aren't in line with the company line.
But one should always consider the source when deciding how seriously to take a comment, and an anonymous source just doesn't carry a lot of weight with me and probably not with many others either.
I agree with Will's comment above about selecting comments for the print edition and have to respectfully disagree with my friend Fred. Just be sure they are clearly identified as blog comments, and not put in the letters or opinions section, which I do think should have more accountability.
Posters should be brave enough to speak in their own names
Tue, 09/09/2008 - 14:57 — Terry Maguire (not verified)I have always bristled at screen names and choose not to read most posts when the author is not identified by her or his name. That's my choice, I realize. It is also a choice that a newspaper needs to make, and I would sure favor a policy that says you must use your real name even on the blog, and we'll check periodically to be sure....and if you want your words published in the printed paper, we'll insist on some verification in addition to a real name. In a world filled with electronic misinformation, at the very least I expect my newspaper to know from whom its printed and published information comes. That's part of what separates a newspaper from the rest and a distinction that is worth retaining and reinforcing.
Take my advice
Tue, 09/09/2008 - 18:51 — elvisboy77If screen names bother you then stick to the newspaper. Problem solved. It really is that simple!
Simple solution
Tue, 09/09/2008 - 07:59 — marcoplosIn the rare event that someone is whistle-blowing, they can just state up-front that they need to remain anonymous due to the nature of their message. The reader can then judge the veracity based on that. Otherwise, you have a bunch of yahoos spouting stuff that they don't have the spine to take responsibility for. Maybe there can be separate but equal posting zones for each topic? One for those who take responsibility for their ideas and one for those who don't.
Why Only Whistleblowers?
Tue, 09/09/2008 - 09:27 — CitizenWillMark, I used whistleblowers as one extreme, to counter the trolls argument but what of folks that wish to express a valid opinion that doesn't quite rise to your standard?
For example, what if an employee of UNC who lives near the proposed Innovation Center wants to highlight potential traffic issues on Piney Mountain but doesn't want to deal with any possible blowback from their employer? Or what of the strictly political domain? What if your boss is a raving partisan and if he/she reads your honest opinion about their party's VP selection it will cause friction? Shall we label them yellow-bellied for wishing to avoid the pain of expressing an honest opinion?
As you said, folks can make their own evaluation of the content, just as they must judge the value of content from institutionalized sources like the AP, N&O, the Herald-Sun (the Chapel Hill editorial content of which I place very little credence), etc.
Finally, while Fred, you and I have made the choice to express our out-of-step opinions in a public fashion, I don't think that means we have more of a right to highlight a community issue than someone that wishes to remain anonymous.
Of course, I'm talking about issues of fact or arguments that maintain some civility. I'm well aware of the problems associated with viscious anonymous attacks or, for instance, use of surrogate attacks by candidates who aren't willing to challenge their opponents directly. Not pleasant but content, as I said before, we can rely on Mark's editorial command to filter appropriately.
Not that big a deal
Tue, 09/09/2008 - 15:18 — marcoplosI can live with anonymous posts. I just don't take them as seriously. As for people afraid of their boss or whatever, I feel sorry for them. Maybe they should make a change in their lives. Too bad anonymous posting can help facilitate their mousiness.
Youch!
Tue, 09/09/2008 - 21:55 — CitizenWillMousy or cowardly Mark is a contextual problem - and seems a harsh indictment, at least for the cases we've discussed.
Imagine confronting online and offline surrogates for a candidate that appeared mousy. Say there was an incumbent holding a public office, more than willing to pontificate publicly on a range of topics, but unwilling to directly engage in policy discussions. Through surrogates and other anonomyzing methods, this candidate takes the low road instead of making the case directly. That candidate, to me, would be acting cowardly.
But what of citizens who aren't public figures, who don't hold public positions of trust, who merely are concerned about the blowback from their commentary?
We live in a country where buckets of grey water are considered terroristic weapons (RNC Crackdown ) in order to suppress dissent. Is it any surprise that folks are being more careful about what they say in public?
Sure, you, Fred and I have made a decision to enhance our credibility by standing publicly by our comments. And like you, I tend to diminish the credibility of anonymous comments but I don't totally discard their value if there seems to be a factual basis for their stance. In that case, I might look further.
The key, here, is whether the comments migrate from OrangeChat to the wider public via the print edition of the Chapel Hill News. As I've said, Mark can use both his editorial discretion and his knowledge of our community to make this judgment. Having a "one-size,fits all" approach of eliminating valid commentary just because it is anonymous does a disservice to those in our community that wish to understand an issue.
won't post if names required
Mon, 09/08/2008 - 10:47 — chccsparent (not verified)Yep, I'm scared of what the CHCCS school will do to my kids if they knew my opinions as posted here on the blog. Witness Ms. Stuckey's reactions to people's opinions posted herein (including mine). She wants them turn off. As long as the People-in-Power (PiPs)'s reaction is to turn off the voice rather than acknowledging what the voice is saying, as long as PiPs attack the messenger rather than the message itself, as long as there is a culture of fear within the CHCCS school system, all the philosphizing in the world doesn't matter. My kids only have one chance. I will not jeopardize their education.
You are absolutely correct.
Tue, 09/09/2008 - 18:52 — elvisboy77Anyone pointing out chinks in the CHCCS Ivory Tower will risk their children being singled out and harrassed. I know this first hand. Which is why I choose not to post my name any more. I am not the one who is chicken-shix in this case. People who would rather pick on a 3rd grader than confront an adult. It is those who don't want to tarnish the shine the realtors have put on their system.
There is a lot of good about CHCCS for example but it is really on a par with neighboring school systems, not really superior in any significant way as some would have you believe.
Some folks use their real names because they have _nothing_ to lose, others because they are mainstream progressives and march lockstep with other like sheep, thus no fear of repercussion from their community.....nothing baaaaaad will happen to them!.
Well said, chccsparent.
Ah, the bravery of anonymity
Wed, 09/10/2008 - 06:58 — marcoplosSo elvisboy, you realize that your anonymous comments will have less effect on changing the problems you comment upon than if you took full responsibility. So the net effect is that all these people choosing anonymity becuase of fears of backlash, actually facilitate the system that wants to discourage critical feedback.
So what to do? I doubt criticizing those who take responsibility for their statements, but disagree with you, is going to help - this even erodes what's left of your anonymous credibility.
By the way, I agree with you on the little-discussed realtor-educational complex.
Some comments stand on their own...
Mon, 09/08/2008 - 10:45 — CitizenWillDoes the unattributed "comment" "“These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.” mean any less because its author was anonymous or do the words stand on their own?
Is it possible, as I suggest, that an anonymous comment made on a 'blog - even one with few posters - has value in and of itself? Further, isn't editorial discretion a decent filter in giving comments wider readership? Promoting comments to a wider readership has value, as Mark noted, and surely, as I said, we can depend on folks to assess the quality based on a number of factors - one of which is if they know whom is posting.
My perspective is somewhat colored because I have had staff over the years alert me off to problems within our local government. Several feared retribution if their opinions went public. In following up, I always vetted the information independently by following the facts. Giving voice to their criticism in a wider venue, like the Chapel Hill News, certainly has more value than "tipping" this citizen.
Finally, as probably most folks on this forum know, being truly anonymous on the Internet is a tough nut to crack. Certainly harder these days with sweeping use of illegal wiretapping and the blunderbuss Patriot Act.
Encouraging some level of dissenting discourse, especially in a community that often beats its chest in celebrating its freedoms, should be welcomed. If the fig leaf of anonymity is the price for that dissent, then so be it.
Kill the beast
Mon, 09/08/2008 - 07:51 — rabid1If you want to make the blogs as restrictive as the letters, you might as well pull the plug on the thing... that would make the Fred Blacks and Lisa Stuckeys of the world happy.
If anonymous posters are not trying to create a personality cult around themselves, then let them be. Otherwise, why bother contribute to a forum with fewer than two dozen participants?
How About Reading What Was Written
Mon, 09/08/2008 - 08:08 — fhblackI was not talking about Blogs, I was talking about printing Blog comments in the paper anonymously. To save you the time it takes to scroll up, here's my comment again:
People should stand by their words
Mon, 09/08/2008 - 06:46 — marcoplosAnonymous posts are inherently not to be taken as seriously as signed posts.
Fred should reveal his bosses
Mon, 09/08/2008 - 06:24 — Mr Right (not verified)Anyone who has read Fred Black's comments on the many places where they have appeared in the past few years will probably wonder who is paying Fred to be so active and why is Fred so determined that anonymous posters be identified.
Fred is either a very civic minded person with a lot of time on his hands or a PR flack for someone. He should reveal who is paying him.
When you read his comments, they are not all that progressive either.
Mr Wrong
Tue, 09/09/2008 - 21:17 — fhblackMr Right (not verified), change your name to Mr. Wrong. Nobody pays me to write anything, including the CHH when I wrote there. My clients are all out of this area, except for one and what I help him with doesn't happen in Orange County . If you read what I wrote, I was talking about what is published in the paper, and yes, I think those quoted in the paper should be identified. If you disagree, that's fine but at least be accurate. I think you must have problems when you can't label people. I stand by what I write and what I say and where I serve in a variety a ways in this community. I think it's important to be responsible and accountable. Since you don't identify yourself, you prevent me from making a balanced judgment about what you post.
CitizenWill's comment is
Mon, 09/08/2008 - 05:56 — jayhurstCitizenWill's comment is well-taken. We are not discussing here our leftist (of the time) Founding Fathers expressing radical notions of freedom from the Crown of England, though, "crimes" for which they would have hanged. We are here discussing whether citizens are willing to stand for their opinions, despite the powerful and wealthy interests who have gutted First Amendment, Fourth Amendment, and (statutory) whistleblower protections. Anonymous posts -- and blogs themselves -- are inherently incredible in political and legal discourse. Only identifiable persons expressing facts can affect change. Otherwise, faceless typists are simply whistling into the wind. If we as a people are serious about taking our Republic from the private interests whose profits we threaten with change -- perhaps the Orange County School Board is one of those interests, I do not know -- then we need actual people taking actual stands with identified comments. Making faceless comments is effectively the same as screaming at one's television, in the closed space of one's own home. With that said, though -- and having paid terrible prices for publicly standing on my comments and beliefs -- I submit real name and city and State of submitters is plenty for public comment. Providing home street addresses does nothing to enhance comments, it only jeopardizes physical security for those willing to fight against wealthy, and sometimes violent, interests deeply vested in the profit they get from the World as it is. Jay Hurst, Chapel Hill
names on blogs
Sun, 09/07/2008 - 22:54 — Anonymous (not verified)No!!!
the difference is you (the
Sun, 09/07/2008 - 22:48 — Anonymous (not verified)the difference is you (the editors of the newspaper) control which letters to the editor you choose to publish, whereas anyone can comment on a blog post.
with blog posts your only recourse is to delete them, anonymous or signed.
it's a legitimate way to gain opinions on all sides without people fearing retribution for comments they may make. sure you have to take the good with the bad, but in this case, as with many internet anonymity cases, the good heavily outweigh the bad
Why Two Standards?
Sun, 09/07/2008 - 14:43 — fhblackWe have heard all of these arguments for anonymity before. Why do printed letters require full information and Blogs not require the same is a valid question. If Blog comments are going to be printed just like letters, then the standard ought to be the same.
It's all about control
Sun, 09/07/2008 - 19:24 — elvisboy77Fred wants "someone" to control comments that do not agree with his outlook. That's all there is to it. Classic Orange Progressive-think. Sorry, Fred, it ain't gonna happen.
Find another outlet to control if you want. What makes this outlet great is that it is not heavily edited like the one that claims to "be the" Orange political outlet, orangepolitics.org, which has become less and less important due to its extreme censorship.
Pretty Bold of You
Sun, 09/07/2008 - 21:40 — fhblackto determine what I want. It isn't about control, it's about ownership and accountability. If you don't want to associate your name and reputation to your commens, let them stay on the blog. If they go into the paper then the same rules should apply as they do with the other material that gets published.
As for censorship, I'm not sure you have a grasp on this, but just what do you think these editors are doing when they decide not to publish something in print? Why do they ask for your address and phone number and actually call you to verify your letter?
You can claim control all you want but the issue to me is, and ought to be ownership and accountability.
BTW, who are you?
Why Fred, They're Clearly Identified As Source from the Internet
Sun, 09/07/2008 - 17:07 — CitizenWillFred (see, I know who fhblack is...), the CHN clearly says (unlike some of our other publications in articles past) that these comments are sourced from their Internet 'blog. I believe folks will accredit the worth of the comments by their own measure - one of which is whether the writer is clearly identified or not. There are few public forums in our community where an anonymous public employee, for instance, can state their opinion on the state of taxpayer funded operations. I'm fairly convinced that the state of our "whistle-blowing" system in Chapel Hill is still hampered by the broken management style of our previous Town Manager. That is an opinion from the outside. I would love to hear an insider perspective - even if it is biased. Further, using this example, if that employee should disclose information that can be independently confirmed by the press, the Chapel Hill News might develop a story they might have never done otherwise. The difference between that same anonymous employee picking up the phone and talking directly to Mark and posting on OrangeChat is that the whole community can respond - one way or another - to the claim. Using ElvisBoy's example, if a school administration employee claimed some particular problem, anonymously, on this forum, Lisa Stuckey would have every opportunity to publicly respond sans any intervention by the CHN editorial staff. That openess, at least to me, seems well worth the "double standard".
What if?
Sun, 09/07/2008 - 14:30 — elvisboy77An employee of the school system has a valid comment that is contrary to the school administration's opinion on a subject? Shouldn't that person be able to voice their opinion without fear of retribution?
That is probably why you got the complaint from the Board Member in the first place, the school system gets criticized on this site and they probably don't like it.
Turning the Spigot Off
Sun, 09/07/2008 - 13:56 — CitizenWillSince you select the content that migrates from OrangeChat to the print edition, I say no, don't require full names or addresses. You are using your editorial discretion on what content is pertinent to the discussion by making this decision with the added bonus of not censoring the full discussion online (as silly as it may become).
Anonymity is not about cowardice, as anyone that has read Publius' Federalist Papers might recall. Yes, you court potential trouble but the reward - greater access to the community's unfettered opinions - is well worth the risk. I hope the Chapel Hill News maintains their precedent of inviting the greatest possible dialog on the issues before our community by continuing to allow anonymous content.
CitizenWill aka WillR
Absolutely at least the
Sun, 09/07/2008 - 13:10 — jayhurstAbsolutely at least the editor should have access to the poster's true first and last name, lest (as we see elsewhere on the web) we find cowardly children hiding behind their anonymities to say things they should take responsibility for -- and for which the libelous and slanderous should be held to account. While I would prefer all posts to publicly identify the sender -- I have no problem with chilling alleged "speech" that relies solely upon rumor and bigotry without the slightest regard for fact or reality -- I do also value the openness of Internet communications. As we saw in Minnesota, something this country's leadership fears most is open access to media documentation, and if one layer of insulation will encourage a free exchange of ideas, it is truly worth the trade. Personal responsibility for one's own words and conduct -- that is what the fools fear, and the serious have no problem with. If a fool can't post a ridiculous lie because s/he can't have anonymity, then we have lost nothing, and gained personal responsibility. Jay Hurst, Chapel Hill