N.C. State fans are grumbling, and they have a right to.
Various segments of the Wolfpack World are upset with football coach Tom O’Brien, basketball coach Sidney Lowe and/or athletics director Lee Fowler.
These are dark days for State. To say otherwise is to disregard scoreboards, which are the first and ultimately, the final, measure of popularity.
In my 40 or so years of covering sports in North Carolina, the most loyal fan base across the spectrum has been State’s. Through almost as much thin as thick, they've purchased the tickets, attended the games, followed through on their financial pledges and stood by their own, including alum Chuck Amato for longer than would have been the case at most area schools.
Having said that, O’Brien — and to some extent, Fowler — seriously need a win over East Carolina on Saturday. The reason for that has more to do with morale than the current record. While O’Brien has gone 6-9 record thus far, he did go 2-0 last season against the Pirates and North Carolina.
In and of itself, that may not sound like any great accomplishment. UNC lost eight games last season and ECU, despite its impressive work down the season’s stretch, did lose five, including a certified wipeout at Marshall.
But former State coach Dick Sheridan, who very, very rarely tipped his hand, much less his mind, once told me that the two primary keys to almost every season were keeping Carolina and ECU at bay. Sheridan long ago departed the Wolfpack sidelines, but the mood in the fan base hasn’t changed a great deal.
Whether it’s entirely based on sound logic or not, State and Carolina fans assume they should be better in almost all sports than ECU. Budget for budget, they are completely correct. The problem there is that ECU, in football and to an extent in baseball, has no little respect for program funding. With the Pirates, it's all about respect. That's the hole card they play best and regularly use to trump big game.
Lou Holtz, during his stint at State in the early '70s, said of the then still-young ECU rivalry: "Against those guys, it's not so much about X's and O's. It's about fire in the belly."
Little has changed on that front. That’s really what State fans will want to see Saturday — the flame of a rivalry that extends beyond the records of the two teams. If O’Brien can strike that match again — as he did last season in Greenville — he won't hear a lot of howling for a while.
Columnist 
Comments
Gotta love it!
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 17:06 — JPDOhioNothing like a rivalry game to get the juices flowing!
I love these blogs like
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 16:40 — gvillegatrI love these blogs like Toots wrote. He knew full well what he was getting himself in. its all about the numbers germs! meaning us!~!!
I am a State fan and I am so
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 15:12 — Anonymous (not verified)I am a State fan and I am so sick of hearing us whine about how we shouldn't be playing ECU. This has turned into a great rivalry and we should continue it. Why shouldn't we play them?They are a decent nonconference instate opponent. Nobody sings this song come baseball season. All the State fans out there who keep whining about this game being scheduled, shut up, you are starting to sound like UNC fans.
Loyalty to a losing team =
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 15:06 — Anonymous (not verified)Loyalty to a losing team = no life.
Great article Caulton!
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 13:58 — State and ECU grad (not verified)Great article Caulton!
More doom and gloom from Tudor
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 12:45 — Anonymous (not verified)CT, I can take your general negativity - it's amusing to track and apparent in well over half your titles - but the article above shows you are completely disconnected from reality. "These are dark days at State"? Oh really? And while reaching for some resemblance of fact-based reporting in this latest N&O pitch from you (or is that tar on your heels like most journalists?), your ramblings are all over the Wolfpack Nation map - it's the fan base - no, the team - no, the coaches - no, the administration. What do you know about sound logic and reasoning? Here's some coaching for you: you can go to L - the Laugh Section of the N&O.
Fowler continues to be the real problem
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 11:56 — Anonymous (not verified)Truth be told from long term Wolfpack fans and alumni, the real problem is the AD. I have been through all the years of up & down (about 30 yrs now, with the past 20 being the worst) and I must say something must change with the current AD set up. Pack fans are not out to get O'Brian (or Lowe either) because we know it takes time and O'Brian represents what the Pack has needed for years. Fowler has made changes and more screw ups than should be possible and still he continues with the golden pass. Fans are frustrated with feeding money to a program that has leadership problems far beyond the playing fields. Everything from scheduling to traditions has be screwed up and it looks as if that will continue for who knows when. I wish someone would take the time to really look at the core problem of wolfpack athletics before blaming everything on the coaches. Bottom line is O'Brian is the man for the job and he will work it out as long as he has the support from the correct people. Other ACC schools have continued to push tradition but we seem to move further away from it every year. The Pack will always have my support but I wish we could make some other changes rather than coaching changes all the time!
Not a Big Game for State??????? Huh?
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 11:31 — bryan (not verified)First let me say I am a HUGE State fan...and thanks Mr. Tudor for the kudos.
Secondly....I despise EZU (ECU)...mostly cause their fans make more noise about being average than most do about being really, really good.
Third...Having said that Skip Holtz is a doggone good football coach and I would take him at NC State anyday.
Finally...I would like to say that there are many years when this is a worthless game for my guys in red, but we could make it more so by actually having good teams that beat the crap out of EZU. For some of my brehtren to suggests this isnt a big game this year for State...I must think that is a bit of snobbery. When you are 0-2 against D-1A...and not projected to win more than 3 or 4 games....ANY win is a big win! Esp against a ranked rival!
You are the snob you
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 14:00 — Anonymous (not verified)You are the snob you idiot. That EZU crap is why East Carolina fans ate NC State and Carolina.
Bs
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 11:21 — Anonymous (not verified)Loyalty doesn't win championships. Brains and talent do. Something state will never have an advantage in.
Tudor' comments
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 10:52 — Jan (not verified)Tudor: take a hike! We are so tired of your begrudging comments about us "loyal wolfpack fans". We are loyal, and yes, a little impatient, but we do realize we are in a rebuilding year and may lose as many or more than we win this year. Success takes time. O'Brien inherited a touch situation. We are and will be patient. Tudor, you are so used to your Carolina patsies been spoiled brats, that I think you get us confused at times! Stick to covering what you like and know: Carolina, and leave us alone!
ECU/NCSU
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 10:15 — Anonymous (not verified)As a graduate of ECU-married to former NCSU athlete, and season ticket holder and contributor to both schools--I LOVE this particular game. When I was in the second grade, (1952) my first attempt to read a newspaper was the "Old Reliable"s reporting of the DIXIE CLASSIC. (not very successful I might add, but the cariacatures of the school mascots really got me) I can still hear the voices of Reid, Jackson, Ausley, Reeve, et al, in my sleep. My first football game at ECC was vs. Wake Forest. Through the years I,ve attended most of the Pack-Pirate games. There is one thing I,m sure of: whenever these teams take the field, no matter who is sickest or hurt the most, you will see them play with everything they got. That's the way football is supposed to be played. I recall the game in Charlotte(Thompson's Last Stand) when ECU gave the Pack all they could handle in the first quarter even though they were woefully overwhelmed by a team with 5 "draft picks the last three quarters. For the Pirate faiithful who think this is one is in the bag--forrr-get it!
cant wait for this game to
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 09:52 — gvillegatrcant wait for this game to kick tomorrow!! beers tap at 930! giddy-up!
Test
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 10:13 — Anonymous (not verified)I am just learning how to do this.
Lee Fowler is an idiot. It
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 09:34 — Chris Canady (not verified)Lee Fowler is an idiot. It is beyond me that he schedules these nothing to gain everything to lose games against ECU. The ECU fans will not admit it now - but everyone knows this is the biggest game on ECUs schedule. Think I am kidding – then look around C/F stadium on Saturday. A win against the pack gives them all kinds of momentum in all kinds of areas. Hats off to Terry Holland. He has done a good job at ECU. It is a shame that States board of directors cannot find better help than Lee Fowler. It is time for “coach Fowler“ to head of to mid major land! Maybe NC State should hire “coach Holland.”
It's going to take patience
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 08:58 — Anonymous (not verified)Nothing worth having is going to happen overnight. Given enough time, the Wolfpack will emerge into a formidable opponent on any given day in both basketball and football. State fans can be patient as they've proven before, unlike UNC fans who gave up on Matt just one year past being selected the NCAA coach of the year and having a final 4 appearance. Tom O'Brien will build a respectable program here like he did at Boston College, and Sydney Lowe will do likewise. Tom O'Brien will likely be here for the long haul, but where will Butch Davis be after a year of success? Rewind to Mack Brown after he had a couple of years success.....where is he now?
that first sentence ...
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 16:32 — gvillegatrthat first sentence ... "nothing worth having is going to happen over night." what a crock of sh*t that statement is!! I know you don't believe that mess you are shoveling.
what do you think Skip Holtz has done at ECU. 3 wins in 2 years. he comes in and immediatley turns the program around. from players on your team to the opposition you play, its all relative so dont whine other wise. (like I know you want to do.)
IF UNC wins on saturday, against VT, Butch will be well on his way to "overnight" success. (notice i upper cased "IF")
Bottom Line
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 08:49 — George3901The bottom line is if ECU beats State it is a major victory, if State beats ECU it's just another non-conference game to prepare for the ACC schedule. ECU has everything to gain and nothing to lose, State only wins if it crushes ECU.
Bottom Line
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 10:37 — melvinfurdECU does have something to lose - a lot. Lose to the Wolfpack & faster than a speeding bullet ECU is no longer ranked in the national polls.
I'd say State has nothing to lose and everything to gain. Beat ECU and they get a little credibility and respect. State loses and it's "so what. the better team won."
what about last year...
Sat, 09/20/2008 - 01:50 — izzykareemwe came to your house, spanked the "arggggh" out of that pirate bee-hind, till you started saying "ouuuuuch"... it didn't do anything for us and we were 1-5. That just started a little mini-streak. I guess you could say it gave us some confidence, that's about it.
I was happy like an EZU alumnus though when you guys beat the tarholes, that was beautiful.
I tend to agree with Melvin
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 10:45 — gvillegatrI tend to agree with Melvin here.
RE: Bottom Line
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 09:13 — Anonymous (not verified)I'm a State fan, and we've been singing that song for a while now. Truth is, that dog won't hunt anymore. ECU, under Skip Holtz, has been making the kind of strides we are still hoping TOB can inspire out of us. With a 3-0 record (yes I know WVU and VT are struggling and Tulane is no USC), ECU would be a major win for us--regardless of whether it's a blowout. And, if ECU wins, we may not like it, but it's just another victory for them.
no grumbling here
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 08:41 — izzykareemHonestly Mr. Tudor, as others have said, no knowledgeable State fan right now is even close to grumbling, especially not about TOB. Even though he had a better first year record than Butch-slap Davis, and deserved a raise more than he did, we understand and see now the problem that Amato really left this program in. We will have 46 scholarship players (maybe 47 if Eugene returns) suit up on Saturday who are not kickers. To fill a 2-deep chart on Offense and Defense you need 44...44!! (I did the Math for all the UNC-CH and EZU grads, not to mention the walmart fans). We understand this is going to be a long year, and just like last year, from week to week, we saw progress and then BAM, we beat the absolute crap out of EZU. We are hoping for the same on Saturday but realize its still very early, freshman QB, lots of injuries.
Quit making excuses before
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 14:28 — Anonymous (not verified)Quit making excuses before the game is played!!! At least you Cow State University people could wait until after the game!!! EZU as you so elloquently put it has to find guys that can play that Cow Univ. and Powder Puff U. (UNC) won't take, and you still get beat. I don't want to year the "whoa is me" sob story about injuries...just get a coach that can maximize the talent he has!!!
Now I remember why I don't
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 21:34 — Anonymous (not verified)Now I remember why I don't like ECU!
"EZU as you so elloquently
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 21:31 — Anonymous (not verified)"EZU as you so elloquently put it has to find guys that can play that
Cow Univ. and Powder Puff U. (UNC) won't take, and you still get beat"
What an "insightful" statement. The players on your team that you are referring to WERE wanted by State (and UNC). The problem is, we couldn't get them through the admissions process or they flunked out.
Here are the members of your team that fall into that camp:
OG Doug Palmer
WR Jamar Bryant
DE Marcus Hands
SS JJ Milbrook
CBDarryl Reynolds
CB Travis Simmons
DE CJ Wilson
DT Jay Ross
Not making excuses, just the facts. If ECU joins the Big East, these players won't be able to get in and ECU will meet the same fate as Louisville. Remember them? They were good in CUSA, now they suck in the Big East. I wonder why? (Hint: Look above).
don't forget...
Sat, 09/20/2008 - 01:45 — izzykareemKhalif Mitchell (he was the one that stopped TA McClendon on the last play of the controversial game of NCSU/UNC-CH) He got booted from UNC-CH and would up at UNC-E-G (EZU).
Brandon Setzer left the Wolfpack and he too plays for UNC-E-G.
There's more, i just cna't remember all of them.
What a great recruiting line by Skip Holtz to kids: "look i know you are probably gonna pick a FBS conference, but if you get tired of studying, we are down here in the middle of nowhwere with alligators, bullfrogs, water moccasins, and one-eyed coeds. Here's my card."
state can hope for the best
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 00:54 — mr pirate (not verified)state can hope for the best but that's about it. i think it would take some help from their special teams to spring the upset. Normally i wouldn't count state out of this rivalry game but their offense is the pits. Pat Pinkney will have a solid 2nd half to seal this one for the purple and gold
Interesting....
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 00:31 — Anonymous (not verified)Irving is goinna eat Patrick Pixie's lunch...
I will take that "Pixie"
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 14:23 — Anonymous (not verified)I will take that "Pixie" over any of your cow prodders!!
State fans are in no way mad
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 00:20 — rgcaudle (not verified)State fans are in no way mad at Tom O'Brien. As long as his players show the determination and heart that theyve shown in the last couple of games we will not be mad. We might get frustrated at poor QBs and Kickers and the medical staff, but we will not be mad at TOB. And the question of heart is exactly why we ARE mad a Sydney Lowe. We're just mad at Lee Fowler because he is sorry.
if we come out running the
Thu, 09/18/2008 - 23:46 — Anonymous (not verified)if we come out running the ball only, then we are sunk.! the best QB needs to be in , in order to get a certified win!
pretty good post tudor.
Thu, 09/18/2008 - 23:43 — mad_maxpretty good post tudor. though, i'm not sure that many wolfpack fans are upset with tom o'brien right now. if state loses to ecu, unc, and duke this year, then yes, there will be some howling. otherwise, let's just keep moving forward.
thanks UNC Alumnus, the true ones never give up. that's one thing jimmy v tought us
Loyal
Thu, 09/18/2008 - 23:18 — Powder Blue Scum (not verified)Loyal is a word that Carolina fans would know nothing about, there has never been a group of people quicker to jump ship than those in powder blue, just ask Mack Brown. They were 9-1 in 1997 and couldnt fill half of Keanan Stadium for the season finale against Duke. We know that we have a team that is not performing well on the field right now, but we still support them to the end. When the dust settles in the coming years we will see the Pack back to dominating the Heels and Pirates again. We have a group of young men and coaches that show class everytime they take the field, can your team say the same? We will be back in the hunt soon and when we are it will be that much sweeter knowing we did it with class and fan loyalty. So live it up now because soon, very soon you will be licking the bottoms of the Pack's shoes as they run over you into the endzone. For the record, ECU fans are loyal too and should be commended for thier support. I agree with the rest of America in saying Carolina fans are the most repulsive in the country as is your school colors. GO PACK!!!GO PACK!!
"back to dominating?"
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 16:58 — Powder blue owns you (not verified)How can you get BACK to dominating when you NEVER have? The scoreboard doesn't lie.
Alltime record: North Carolina: 63; NC State: 28; Ties: 6
Record in ACC (1953-2006): North Carolina: 34; NC State: 20
Record in Carter-Finley (Carolina Friendly) Stadium: North Carolina:12; NC State 8
Let's not even talk basketball, soccer, baseball, tiddly winks. It's too bad we don't have a bass fishing team, because we'd kick your butt in that too.
Loyalty is for losers per
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 11:35 — Anonymous (not verified)Loyalty is for losers per your above definition. I guess championships (of which UNC has FAR more of) don't matter. LMAO
Good one,
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 15:30 — JamesinWillowSpringsGood one, Anonymous!
ACC championships in football:
1968, 1973, 1979
1980
James
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 16:24 — gvillegatryou guys were pretty solid in the 60's!!
Championships?
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 14:20 — Anonymous (not verified)You must be referring to those women's soccer championships....that is the only football UNC can compete in...I don't like state, but at least their fans show up and get loud for their team regardless of the record...Carolina fans hardly show up for great teams much less bad ones. You may have more fans in the stands in basketball, but where were they while Matt Doroghty (spelling?) was putting the program in the toilet?
still leading the league in
Fri, 09/19/2008 - 15:05 — Anonymous (not verified)still leading the league in attendance...even then. check it out.
Sorry - I have to argue the
Thu, 09/18/2008 - 23:03 — NonPirateSupportPirates (not verified)Sorry - I have to argue the other way: ECU needs another win - over State! A win for State won't improve your season, but a win for ECU will keep their magic run alive - which is not only good for ECU, but also good for the entire North Carolina. Good luck, Wolfpack. Btter luck, Pirates!
I like how Lou Holtz called
Thu, 09/18/2008 - 22:20 — gvillegatrI like how Lou Holtz called North Carolina "Carolina" tonight at HT of the Neers and Buffs game!! didnt he used to wear a wind breaker that was garnett and black that said Carolina!!?? Love it!! he knows the deal.
ECU fans need tickets!!!
Thu, 09/18/2008 - 21:35 — Anonymous (not verified)Wolfpackers, get your money back. Invest in a tank of gas. SELL, SELL, SELL !!!
What is this bullcrap about
Thu, 09/18/2008 - 21:14 — Loyal fan base??? (not verified)What is this bullcrap about mooU's fans being the "most loyal"? Based on what? Their fans are no more (or no less) loyal than any other school. Every single time that their athletics programs go into the deepest dumper, which is pretty much every other year, their redneck fanbase trots out this self-aggrandizing tripe about how "loyal" they are as fans, with the media as willing sycophants.
Fan loyalty - look at the last 8 years
Thu, 09/18/2008 - 23:48 — Scott (not verified)Over the last 8 years:
NC State: Heading for their 4th losing season in 8 years. However, have sold out season tickets to Carter Finley for each of those 8 seasons. Preseason ACC prediction this year - last.
UNC: Has sold out season tickets to Kenan one time in the last 8 seasons, this year, when the ACC preseason prediction was 2nd in the Coastal.
ECU: One Dowdy Ficklen season ticket sellout in history, last year, when both UNC and NC State were on the home schedule.
While I agree with a lot of
Thu, 09/18/2008 - 20:30 — Anonymous (not verified)While I agree with a lot of what Mr. Tudor says in this article, the title is all wrong.
To suggest for one moment that State fans are disenchanted with Tom O'Brien is ridiculous. He inherited a program in shambles and has dealt with injury problems that have not been seen on this scale anywhere, at any time.
More specifically, NC State will line up against ECU Saturday with 46 healthy scholarship players (not counting kickers) out of a possible 85. To O'Brien's credit, no player is allowed to discuss these injuries in public.
Unfortunately for Pack fans, this year will more than likely be a long one. However, the future is bright and O'Brien is EXACTLY the type of coach that any school would want given the same circumstances.
This is arguably ECU's best team ever, and one of State's weakest in a long time given the depth problems in youth.
ECU needs NOT to lose this game a LOT more than State needs to win. The shoe is on the other foot (for a little while at least).
Atleast the stadium "works"
Thu, 09/18/2008 - 19:48 — UNCAlumnusRight? Best of luck NCSU football team. I truly do hope you guys beat ECU on Saturday. ... Don't give up Wolfpack fans, it's always darkest before the dawn.
too bad that's not going to
Thu, 09/18/2008 - 19:45 — Anonymous (not verified)too bad that's not going to happen Tudor, GO PIRATES!