Tudor: Pack nears historic low

Submitted by caultontudor on 02/03/2011 - 11:11

Eight games and the ACC Tournament remain, but N.C. State is flirting with perhaps its most disappointing basketball season ever.

At 12-10 overall and 2-6 in the conference entering Saturday’s game at league-leader Duke (6 p.m.), there’s little chance the team can come close to meeting expectations.

Picked for fourth in the league, the Pack is in some danger of finishing last.
For underachievement, relative to preseason outlooks, there were three other similar seasons.

• 1999-2000: Herb Sendek’s fourth team went 20-14 overall and 6-10 in the league after adding highly-rated freshman Damien Wilkins to a group that included several returnees from a 19-14 team the previous season.
The ’99-’00 team did improve some late, upsetting Virginia in the ACC quarterfinals and winning three games in the NIT.

• 1978-79: Norm Sloan’s 13th and next to last team went 18-12 overall but only 3-9 in the ACC and was skipped by the NCAA and NIT.
With playmaker Clyde Austin and forward Charles Whitney in their junior seasons, the team was predicted to challenge North Carolina and Duke for the league championship.
By mid-December, the Pack was ranked No. 4 nationally and was No. 8 going into a Jan. 10 game against Maryland in Reynolds Coliseum. An 82-81 loss sent the team into an inescapable tailspin that was marked by 10 losses in the final 15 games.

• 1959-60: It was unimaginable that Everett Case, in his 14th season and firmly entrenched as one of the nation’s biggest winners, could have an 11-15, 5-9 team. His previous worst finish was 18-6 overall.
But the ’59-‘60 team was trying to work several newcomers into a lineup that was struggling to overcome the graduations of playmaker Lou Pucillo, forwards Bob MacGillvray and Geroge Stepanovich and center John Richter.
A 14-point loss to Wake Forest in the season’s second game led to a 3-10 start.

Comments

u gotta b kidding me

Fri, 02/04/2011 - 18:58 — shharris

I can't believe what I am reading. All these people who think Sidney should have another year. I could not disagree more. Every single team Sidney has coached has played the same. It does not matter who the players are or what the talent level is or even whether they are sick or not. Sydney cannot coach.

Viper, I'm sorry but "Sidney is a great offensive coach"??? Go back and watch the films, tapes or videos. Try to count the number of times Sidney called timeout and State did not score at a critical time.

Sidney's five years are filled with talented recruits he could not figure out how to mix together into a winning team. Good coaches teach (and demand) teamwork and defense; leaders inspire motivation and make chemistry. Ferret Face at Dook is the best I've seen at maximizing the strengths of the players he has at any given time. Sidney has shown us none of these skills. Why would anyone who loves State basketball want to suffer through another year of initial high hopes that are dashed before the end of January?

Lowe must Go.steve'73

carry on steve

Sat, 02/05/2011 - 10:44 — JPDOhio

Your points are not only valid, but indisputable. I have made a few of them myself in the last few weeks out of total frustration. For now though, I intend refrain from speculating on what Sid's future may be. I am going to do my best to support the team for the rest of the year and let the chips fall where they may after the season is over. Sid has handled this adversity with class. I will try to do the same for the remainder of the year. It won't be easy.

Debbie Yow is an upgrade over Lee Fowler. Some would say, accurately, that it would be impossible not to upgrade no matter who got hired. I am not sure about that, but I will leave the decision on Sid in her capable hands.

Meanwhile, we will now see who the keepers on the team are. When things are going well, it is easy for players to be motivated and energized. When things are going bad and everyone is on your back, that's when you find out who you can count on. And that means who will be focusing on team goals, not using the situation as an excuse to go your his way and pad his numbers. The future, with or without Sid, starts now.

Time to move on in another direction

Fri, 02/04/2011 - 12:59 — cather02

It is obvious that the season is lost and this 2010-2011 team is headed into oblivion, i really do not think this team will win any more games and could finish 12-19-or 13-18 and yes be the worse team in NC State basketball history as Carlton Tudor has written. Sidney Lowe may be a kind man and his intentions are well thought and has hopes and passions to be successful at NC State, but he has obviously failed, though not all his fault, he has failed, as i also blame the players partially, and the coach has learned on the job, but the time has come after the end of his fifth season to move on and hire a new coach and a quality one with college basketball experience and a solid philosophy. I think Coach Lowe will return to the pros and have a good career there, but it is time to move on. Five years is an extremely long time to establish a program and his does not have any foundation. It is sad that new coaches in BC and Clemson have a foundation and we are still "waiting to go on a run, a winning streak?" I comend what Sidney Lowe has done, he took a job at times no one really wanted due to a bad hiring process by our previous ad:Lee Fowley, but it is time to move in another direction. I hope soon that News and Observer and Carlton Tudor start writing articles about possible replacements because that is the best we can look forward at this point.

Lamentations-well said...

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 22:21 — MrWuff

I, too, am weary of holding my head in shame each and every basketball season. I attended NCSU during the Les years, so I have experienced defeat in a close and personal way. When will NCSU be relevant again? Please, please Mrs. Yow...please find us a leader. A man that can be both a recruiter and a coach-it takes BOTH. You must have talent to win and you must have a strategist and motivator to make sure they're not just playing street ball. Mrs. Yow, please restore NCSU to its rightful place....help us, Debbie Yow, you're our only hope...

Lamentations

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 21:53 — Shoreman67

I am deeply saddened and terribly disappointed by the way this BB season has unfolded. All last summer I had been reading about the great recruiting class that the Pack had coming in. I couldn't wait to get down to Charleston, SC for the Charleston Classic Tournament to see these guys in action. I saw the first two games and was favorably impressed with the way they were playing. I thought man, these guys are gonna' win some games and take us to the Dance this year.

Then came the Georgetown game, the championship game. They played pretty well in the first half and then the defense collapsed, the offense started throwing up wild shots and they collapsed. Little did I know that that second half was going to prove to be a harbinger of the way they would play throughout the season.

So, now here we are in February with nothing more than a snowball's chance in hell to get to the tournament, and I'm asking how did such a promising season go to pieces? I can't figure it out; I can only shake my head and lament at what could have been a really good season but instead has turned into a disaster. Oh, well...............

my take, for what its worth

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 23:26 — JPDOhio

I think Sid made three mistakes that go to the root of this year's meltdown:

Starting two of the three freshmen. Sid took evey opportunity to warn everyone not to expect too much from the freshmen, yet he elevated them over returning players who had proven themselves in actual college games. Both Brown and Leslie are very talented, but they have a tendency to go one-on-one a lot, because in their past experience it worked out well. Now it is a little different. Meanwhile, the chemistry the team developed at the end of last year disappeared. It would have been better if Sid practiced what he preached and brought the freshmen along more deliberately, working them in as they got comfortable with the system.
Falling for the fallacy "Have talent, must play"- CJL has eye-opening hops. However, he seems to lack any understanding of fundamental basketball and is lazy, both mentally and physically. The conventional wisdom says that you have to play a guy that has that much talent. I say you play the guys that give your team the best chance to win. That doesn't happen with a talented player who has no concept of getting other players involved when he has the ball and shows intensity only when a highlight reel moment presents itself. And shows no interest in playing defense at all.
Accepting half-hearted effort, especially on the defensive end. Teams that don't play defense do not contend for championships. But solid consistent defense is hard work. It is not enough to acknowledge the problem. You have to demand it out of every player on the roster. And you can only enforce it by allocating playing time based on defensive effort.

I don't know if Sid is going to get another year or not. I will continue to support the team and truly wish Sid the best for the rest of the year. We'll see how it all plays out.

I hear ya' JPD but

Fri, 02/04/2011 - 12:25 — Shoreman67

right now I'm thinkin' just put the freshman on the floor and let 'em play; maybe, just maybe, they can develop some sort of cohesiveness between now and the end of the season; maybe their one-on-one style can get us a win or two. I don't think it can get too much worse; we're pretty much out of any post season anyway.

dazed and confused.

Fri, 02/04/2011 - 14:08 — JPDOhio

That's how I feel at this point with the Pack. No doubt we are all reaching for straws here.

Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that the freshmen not get significant minutes. Ryan Harrow has to play when he is healthy, because he is the best point guard we have and is continuing to improve. I am also willing to give on Lo Brown, who showed that he is capable of playing hard-nosed defense when he wants to and, despite making more bad decisions with the ball than I would like to see, does more good than bad when he is on the floor. Unforunately, I see Leslie as a lazy, glory hog who will never achieve his potential until he understands that his God-given talents are not enough to rely on and that he has to work on improving the weaknesses in his game and be more consistent in his effort. But that's just me.

That said, I have to disagree that it is best to just let the freshmen play. First, it rewards behavior that shouldn't be rewarded. I think turning those guys loose will make things worse not better. Don't forget too that everyone who matters is coming back next year except Tracy and Javi. Now is the time to set things right and lay the groundwork for (I hate to say it) next year. Sure, we can't unring the bell on what's happened so far, but this team is going nowhere this year or next if they don't commit to solid and intense defense for 40 minutes. Regardless of who is on the floor, that has to be the minimum requirement. If you don't buy into that, you don't play. No discussion necessary.

OK, that's my therapy for the day. A lot better and cheaper than a shrink. My anniversary is coming up on Monday, so maybe the Pack can give me early gift tomorrow. I just can't help but keep a kernel of hope going, against all odds.

One last thing. I was wondering if you visited Charleston for the hoops classic or live in the area? I was there for a conference a couple of weeks before that and was really impressed with the area. No big deal if you don't care to answer, but I was just curious after you posted about the tourney.

Go Pack!

Re: your inquiry

Fri, 02/04/2011 - 17:14 — Shoreman67

No I don't live in Charleston (I used to live in Beaufort, SC, a little further south) but my Grandson attends the College of Charleston. We went down there (I now live in Va.) to bring him home for Thanksgiving break and to attend the BB tournament with my son, who is an 86" State grad. We love the city and will, no doubt, be going back to visit as long as he is a student there.

As you may know, the CofC has a really good BB team, coached by our old friend Bobby Cremins. So, I am a fan of theirs as well. They should be in the hunt for an NCAA bid if they can win their conference; right now they are in first place.

Thanks for the inquiry; I enjoy reading your posts. You are a very intuitive, knowledgeable Wolfpack (BB) fan. Take care.

Thank you

Fri, 02/04/2011 - 17:48 — JPDOhio

We stayed at Charleston Place while we were there, which was just of few blocks from the C of C campus and arena. Looked like a beautiful place to go to school and a great town. I haven't eaten that well anywhere I have been. And Charleston Place just might be the best hotel I have ever stayed at. If it weren't for the fact that I had to spend the days inside at a Tax Conference, it would have been perfect. My wife enjoyed it though.

Maybe you can

Fri, 02/04/2011 - 19:09 — Shoreman67

get back down there with your wife when you have more time for pleasure. The Charleston Classic BB Tournament is in November; might be a good time for you to see some good BB and enjoy the city. I am hopeful that we can go down at that time again this year. If you go, maybe I will see ya' there.....take care and Go Pack!

that

Sat, 02/05/2011 - 10:46 — JPDOhio

Is a plan worthy of consideration. My son, NCSU 2002, would probably jump at the opportunity.

maybe next year

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 20:32 — realwuf

Sid deserves at least 7 more years. By then the learning curve should be over, and everyone should be out of excuses. Case got 14 years, Sloan 13 years.

Maybe Next Year???

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 22:26 — MrWuff

Spoken like a true Carolina fan...

Carolina fans.

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 17:40 — gamilicad

Several of my Carolina friends/fans think Sid should be given another year..................I think the BS meter, that use to light-up the applause in Reynolds Coliseum, just burst the top light bulb.

Agree

Fri, 02/04/2011 - 12:57 — Surfer

Okay, but let's take this to the next level. Reasons for Sid to stay at least one more year:

He has one more year on his contract
He is a State alum
He was a point guard on an NCSU NC team
He employs the sevices of another point guard who was on the other NCSU NC team
He owns a red blazer
He can recruit
He has shown moments of coaching ability (ref. first few minutes of Clemson game)
He can whislte
No one will want to hire him away
He is adored by fans throughout the ACC
He has beaten Dook, twice, I think
He has beaten UNC once
He is familiar with the State campus
He has made the ACC tournament every year
His top rated freshmen will be more experienced next year

I am sure that there are others I have omitted, but as I have also noted before, unless Yow has a specific hire in mind, having Sid back for a few more years may be better than the alternative?

Got to stay Positive

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 15:43 — trainer47

The season is not over and the Pack can turn it around. I think we have a team that could still learn and grow. No excuses for some of the things we have done this year but it aint over till its over, as a wise man said. Heck, we could go undefeated for the remainder of the year, simple, just score more points than the opponent. These guys have heart and they especially have the ability, so it could happen. This will not happen if we are always down on the guys - I would bet they can play better than ya'll guys can. I am behind the team and Sid, wish them the best and they got to kick butt and show everyone they can do it for the remainder of the year. I really think these guys have the heart to do it - they need strong motivation and they should never let anyone get them down, especially the folks that post here. Go get em Pack.

Oh, I'm positive alright...

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 21:43 — samhill333

There is a difference between positive thinking and wishful thinking. I wish everything would be ok, but I'm postitve it won't be. Fans being positive doesn't help a team without a decent coach. The most postive thing we can do for NCSU is voice our displeasure with Lowe's performance. He's recruited for 4 years, he's had 4+ years to try and coach NCSU and he has the 5th best recruiting class in the nation with a returning sharpshooter and preseason all acc center. Yet, in the acc's worst year ever, he is still a bottom dweller with virtually no defense and an offense that is truly offensive. In 30 plus years of being a Pack fan, I can truly say I have never been more disappointed in our situation. He can't coach and has proved it EVERY YEAR everywhere he has tried. Much like the missing 16000 fans from the RBC, I've seen enough. Show your support for the program by demanding Lowe's departure...

Well said

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 16:10 — Surfer

Trainer and JPD, now competing for the most optimistic post.

Absolutely nothing wrong with what you said. You are right, it is not over, but I might add that it is very close. At 2-6 in the ACC and probably needing a 10-6 ACC record, that means the Pack must win out - next up, Dook in Hansbrough Indoor Stadium. It could happen, but they might want to play a different game that what they have played thus far.

Of course, if that doesn't work out, there is always a chance to win the ACC Tournament. Here again, no easy task, but I applaude your optimism.

N C STATE basketball

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 15:41 — johng

I would like for all UNC folks to quit harassing State about their basketball team. Remember they are a big time football program and don't really have time for BB.

Mixed Review - Sid deserves a chance

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 15:16 — ViperRet

OK, I was at the game. The wisecracks about the bow tie are by the "uninformed". Sid wore it out of respect for the passing of Bernie Batchelor, the photographer who shot most of the team's photos and was a fan in the Valvano years.

Sid usually starts a Sr., a Jr. and 3 Fr. Last night the Sr., who was out for almost 8 weeks had a bum knee and was totally off his game. Painter did a great job.

Scott Wood can hit and also miss, but is a terror on defense.

One of the Fr., CJ Leslie is just coming back from the stomach flu that had Ryan Harrow out. Harrow has missed two games and was too sick last night to even be in the building.

CJL was the top scorer last night and got some key rebounds. He also made a few Freshman mistakes by trying to single handedly "winning it".

Sid pulled most of the starting line-up, like a certain coach who wears light blue has done. Folks called that "stupid" last night, but these same folks called it "brilliant" when Huckleberry Roy does it.

Sid has NOT had a full team all season....remember, the ranking were based on the "brilliance" of the recruits....and they are coming along. What is "messed up" is the natural chemistry that they developed and now they must figure out how to anticipate their teammates' reflexes.

Javi, who was benched for a Freshman, played a pretty good game last night, but did not get many points.

If Tracy could have PHYSICALLY rebounded and scored, then the first 10 minutes would have been different.

Am I frustrated....CERTAINLY....but I think that Sid deserves to have another year to bring this class along. He RECRUITED them, now let him develop them.

I DO think that Sid needs to evaluate his staff....we need some better talent there. He is a brilliant offensive coach, but needs some defensive coaching help.

My two cents....Herb left when he felt he was unloved. He would have been MORE loved if he understood how much we hate to lose to local rivals....Sid does...

I ain't giving my my LTR tickets....

One more year

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 15:42 — Surfer

I too, would like to see Sid have one more year, at least. I would also like to witness his brilliant offensive (besides the red jacket) execution.

I liked the bow tie. Nice that he could/would do that.

Wood as a terror on defense, is that good or bad?

No doubt injury and sickness has hurt this team.

Saw Tracy rubbing the knee. That is not good.

Good for you and your tickets, however, based upon the number of empty seats last night, it looks like there are plenty available.

well stated

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 15:35 — JPDOhio

Good to see that not everyone has gone to the dark side.

We needed someone to step in while I take my temporary leave of absence from the land of positive thoughts.

Yes, but

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 22:12 — gvillegatr

The top and middle of his "book" are based on excuses. If a Tar Heel fan had written this, Viper would have railed into the post. I've seen this guy post before ...

Well, Sid broke out

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 14:16 — mendoza8

Well, Sid broke out some more cliches after last night's game. Something about "circling the wagons." It's apparent that State isn't close to being able to win consistently in the ACC. Five seasons is plenty of time to get it figured out. The end result is inevitably the same: four or five conference wins and some vague assurances of a promising future. Short of a drastic turnaround in the remaining games of the regular season and a strong showing in the ACC tournament, I don't see how the coaching staff could be retained.

Drastic Turnaround

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 15:27 — Surfer

Yep, I am afraid that drastic turnaround = 8-0 from here on out or winning the ACC tourney. Neither appears likely, but either is possible. Still another year for Sid might not be a bad idea, unless someone proven could be brought in of course.

Basketball

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 13:35 — jerrysmith

Sidney Lowe should never been hired as a basketball coach at NC State due to the fact that he cannot coach college kids or rather teach them basketball. NC State governoring people were stupid and did not go for a good proven college coach.

Positives at this point

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 13:09 — Surfer

With the current 12 wins, they have already won more than the 1959-60 team (11 wins) and they have eight more chances to get 3 more ACC wins to equal the 1959-60 team's ACC mark of 5 wins. So perhaps it won't be the worst season ever.
The Pack showed some heart, particularly on defense, towards the end of the game. A little late perhaps, but at least they showed that they are capable.
Sid improved his wardrobe
The ACC season is half over
CJL made most of his FTs
They get to play WF again
They've won more games than the FB team
They will make the ACC Tournament

Sid, We appreciate you

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 12:44 — ProwlingWoofie

Sid,

We appreciate you taking on the challenge, but Lee Fowl-up should've never put you in this position. We love you for what you gave as a player, and thank you for giving it your all, but the experiment has been a failure.

Best wishes in your future endeavors,

Wolfpack Nation

Nice

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 22:05 — gvillegatr

Well put

bye bye sidney

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 12:32 — ezunc

great person but can't coach the college game

Actually...

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 16:38 — willncsu34

He couldnt coach in the pros either.

(No subject)

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 12:23 — Nesnah

No kidding....

Maybe NCSU should drop out of the ACC and join Conference USA

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 12:08 — Platowasright

They would be able to compete for conference championships and have their rival ECU in their own conference. They might be competitive there.

And maybe UNC and DUKE could go to SOCON in football

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 14:42 — Whoisthat

Might score a few more wins. As I recall just last year UNC had a dismal year and they also had a former player/coach that had the same results. That did not send them to the CON.USA

not talking football

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 15:23 — dkellyunc

we're talking basketball and the waste of a basketball team in NCState.. you cannot even compare the 2 if you think about it....UNC went to a bowl and had a winning season.

State will be lucky just to finish .500...

Last year was an abberation for UNC, it's a every year thing for State. Year after year NC State clearly shows how irrelevant they are in basketball.

not talking football

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 15:23 — dkellyunc

we're talking basketball and the waste of a basketball team in NCState.. you cannot even compare the 2 if you think about it....UNC went to a bowl and had a winning season.

State will be lucky just to finish .500...

Last year was an abberation for UNC, it's a every year thing for State. Year after year NC State clearly shows how irrelevant they are in basketball.

Maybe

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 15:21 — Surfer

But what would that say about NCSU, since Dook currently "owns them" in FB, as you say. Plus UNC has had more winning seasons than NCSU in the past 4 years. (Have I ever said that before?)

You're right, UNC had a dismal year last year in BB (although they did reach 20 wins) with a former player/coach with less than desirable results.

Oh, but wait, I just remembered, he is also a HOF coach who had won the NC the year before and another one just 4 years prior to that one. Gosh, I am amazed that we didn't ride him out on a rail.

Suicide Watch

Thu, 02/03/2011 - 11:58 — YAR8pack

Here are some sad figures:

ACC record by an NC State coach since 1990-91 season:

Les(s) 28-66 (.298)

(S)Herbert 72-88 (.450)

Sid 22-50 (.306)

TOTAL: 122-204 (.374)

*double face palm*

Tudor: Pack nears historic low

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