Lively discussion on the "Stop the I-AA madness" post. Thanks to the Appalachian State fans for sharing their opinion and flying the I-AA banner.
Once again, kudos to you for beating Michigan, winning three straight national titles and becoming the exception to the rule.
The App State fans inspired me to search the record books to support my "ignorant" case. Which was, to summarize, I-A vs. I-AA games can only be bad for the I-A team and are almost always won by the I-A team.
I found some numbers to ponder while you customize your J.P. Giglio urinal cakes:
• The ACC is 85-7 vs. I-AA teams since 1989 (Jerry Moore's first season at App State. Note all numbers are from 1989 to 2007).
Take out Wake Forest, and the ACC is 76-2 vs. I-AA teams.
Let the record note all 92 games were played at the ACC team.
• Appalachian State is 6-17 against I-A teams under Moore, including 5-11 vs. the ACC with all five wins over Wake Forest (5-6 overall).
Let the record note, none of the five seasons that ASU beat Wake did the Deacs win more than three games.
• The Triangle's ACC teams — branded by the Yosef Community, sometimes accurately, as the dregs of Division I football — are 29-2 against I-AA teams.
Furman beat UNC, 28-3 in 1999, and Richmond beat Duke, 13-0 in 2006.
Let the record note, UNC and Duke have not scheduled ASU under Moore.
• N.C. State is 16-0 against I-AA teams, including three wins over ASU — 56-0 in 1990, 35-10 in 1992 and 23-10 in 2006.
To put that record in perspective, the Wolfpack went 111-100-1 vs. I-A teams during the same span and 72-77 vs. ACC teams.
Please draw your own conclusions. I'll stick with mine: I-A vs. I-AA games can only be bad for the I-A team and are almost always won by the I-A team.
Comments
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I realize that I am a bit
Tue, 09/09/2008 - 10:40 — Anonymous (not verified)I realize that I am a bit late in posting here, however when I read the thread, I had to comment.... First, let me state that I am a native of Boone and have followed App St FB since I was a child. I have seen the years that Watauga HS could have beaten App and the recent success under Coach Moore. I could not be more happy for the University, Coach Moore, the Alumni, and students. However, let's be realistic here! For all the App fans that want to rant about their current superiority over the in-state ACC schools, if you REALLY want in the argument, then go to your administration and AD and push to move to a FBS conference. I'm not sure that it is something you want to do. The glory days would be OVER! One could look at the success of USF moving up, but they DO reside in FL and have a great talent base from which to recruit and Tampa's Raymond James Stadium to play home games. Just take a look at Marshall. They used to whip up on SC foes and wanted to be a big boy. Just look at what that got them. ASU...stay where you are, continue to kick butt, be thankful that Jerry Moore wanted to stay in Boone, and be happy with who you are...a powerhouse in the FCS. Stop the whining about not playing UNC because it does make you look like you have an inferiority complex. I didn't hear anyone mention wanting to play them in basketball anymore!!
Seriously
Wed, 08/27/2008 - 21:35 — UNC fan (not verified)J.P. cracks me up! No, its not just his little soul patch or the guido hair style. It's just that I think my 12 year old son could have googled all of this information and typed out a bunch of facts off wikipedia. Do yourselves a favor N&B and look in to that stack of applications for sports writers
J.P. aka "Mr. Obvious"
Mon, 08/25/2008 - 18:03 — App Prof (not verified)As one who has watched App State football for 25 years from the stadium and the classroom, I wrote a long post upon reading J.P.'s first rant about FCS teams.
Here I'll only reiterate that J.P. is a master at stating the obvious: The matchups are about money. (Really? And I thought O.J. didn't do it!) There is no future in BCS teams playing FCS teams. (Well, not for UNC anyway whose stalwart defense held a mediocre Furman team to 42 points a couple of years ago). And ASU deserves credit for three national championships won on the field, not in some beauty contest run by the media? (Oh? Well, here's an equqlly earth-shaking flash, J.P.: Rumor has it that Roy Williams's team might be pretty good this year.)
This is big-time sportswriting? Give me the Watauga Democrat and its staff of homers anyday.
Perhaps a little different perspective
Fri, 08/22/2008 - 09:36 — Mountain Man (not verified)The only bad thing for the FBS teams playing against the FCS are if the FBS teams get beat! That is what you fear the most, J.P.!
J.P.'s opinions and comments are also fueled only by his jealousy of Appalachian State's success (especially in the post-season) on the football field as compared to the four larger FBS programs in the past three years. For the sake of a different perspective, let's consider the post-season records of UNC, Duke, NC State, and Wake Forest since the beginning of Appalachian State's record-breaking championship run in 2005:
NC State's last bowl appearance was the Meineke Bowl in 2005, a win over South Florida 14-0. This was only 4 years after S. Florida left what was then called 1-AA for 1-A!
UNC's last bowl appearance was in the 2004 Continental Tire bowl, a loss to Boston College 37-24.
Wake's last bowl appearance was the Orange Bowl in 2006, a loss to Louisville 24-13. That was one of the finest season's in WFU's football history capped by a spot in one of the top four bowls. Let's not forget that they were also ACC Champions that year! However, J.P. won't include them.
Duke's last bowl appearance was the 1994 Hall of Fame Bowl, a loss to Wisconsin 34-20.
Hmmm, 2 bowl appearances among the big four "football powerhouses" that shouldn't play FCS teams - one in 2005 and one in 2006. Only one bowl win in a lower-tier bowl against a team fresh out of 1-AA.
Hardly compelling football, except for Wake's success in 2006. But again, let's not include them.
Appalachian State's record - Three consecutive undisputed FCS/1-AA National Championships. Postseason record of 12-0. Three consecutive Southern Conference Championships (only one shared).
Although I've only looked at the postseason, how may AP Top 5 teams were beaten by J.P.'s big four since 2005???
Open your eyes J.P. and give ASU the kudos that they deserve for their success on the gridiron. Don't forget that they are a team from the state of North Carolina!
Home Cooking ACC Refs
Fri, 08/22/2008 - 08:33 — Anonymous (not verified)Let the record note, that in all of the ASU/Wake games ACC officials called the game, and on more than one occasion they won the game for the ACC team. Home Cooking.
"Please draw your own
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 13:36 — Zenwil (not verified)"Please draw your own conclusions. I'll stick with mine: I-A vs. I-AA games can only be bad for the I-A team and are almost always won by the I-A team."
It's a shame that the Big 4 won't schedule a game against an in-state opponent that can match or better any of them on a given day. The reason they won't schedule that game, you ask? Because it could mean the difference between playing in the Historically Signifigant "Roady's Humanitarian Bowl" as opposed to playing in the "Congressional Bowl" and all the ridicule from their ACC brethren that would entail.
But then again, as their bowl record for the past 5 years suggests, it might make the difference between playing in the "Congressional Bowl" or getting an early start on the spring semester's academics.
In the past 5 years the Big 4 have had a combined 20 chances to qualify for a bowl but have appeared in exactly 5 bowl games. In all fairness though I must admit they have won an astounding 60% of those bowl games. And against powerhouse football programs the likes of Kansas, Conneticut (only 6 years removed from FCS at the time) and South Florida (only 4 years removed from FCS at the time). If we do the math, we find that the Big 4 have a 15% bowl success rate over the past 5 years. If I were the head coach at one of the Big 4 and I was already facing odds that long, I wouldn't want to play a game against the most succesfull program in the state either. It's just safer that way.
Sigh, ACC columnists are the
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 11:36 — Anonymous (not verified)Sigh, ACC columnists are the biggest whiners I know
Nothing to lose
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 11:24 — Clayton (not verified)The argument that an ACC school has nothing to gain and everything to lose against a 1-AA team is bogus.
Let's face it, a good season for either UNC or State is one that makes them bowl elligible. So, playing weak 1-AA teams can be the difference between playing in a bowl and missing a bowl. So, a 5-6 UNC team that misses a bowl one year because they play an SEC team could've easily been 6-5 if they played a 1-AA team instead.
That is why ACC teams schedule 1-AA teams, for easy wins. That means scheduling teams like Western Carolina, Coastal Carolina, Liberty, and NC A&T.
The point us App fans are trying to make is that we do not belong in that "easy win" category. Neither does Furman, JMU, Wofford, or McNeese State. We've proven that we can compete.
Parity is becoming more the norm in college sports. Its obvious in basketball with the success of schools like Gonzaga, Davidson, and George Mason. Its beginning to surface more and more in football also. A top tier 1-AA team can compete at the same level with the middle of the pack in 1-A. This is recent history Mr. Giglo. Your historical stats are nice but, they say nothing about the current teams.
App fans believe that UNC is scared to play us and their AD is doing nothing to change that perception so, until they get better, we're going to keep on talking.
We've earned it.
Clayton
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 14:50 — gvillegatrthis is what you wrote:
"The point us App fans are trying to make is that we do not belong in that "easy win" category. Neither does Furman, JMU, Wofford, or McNeese State. We've proven that we can compete."
then you wrote this:
"App fans believe that UNC is scared to play us and their AD is doing nothing to change that perception so, until they get better, we're going to keep on talking."
so UNC is playing a team you have confirmed as "not an easy win." yet, you say you will keep talking??
i'd restructure your thoughts. or, not be so consumed while you write!! lol.
Mr. Exclamation Point
Fri, 08/22/2008 - 07:25 — clayton (not verified)Hey Mr. Exclamation Point, I know what I wrote, I don't need you to tell me.
McNeese State is a good 1-AA football team that won't be blown out by a bad 1-A team in UNC. Appalachian State is a great 1-AA team that can beat a bad 1-A team like UNC.
Therefore, they both can't be classified in the "easy win" category.
App fans will keep talking because UNC refuses to play the top 1-AA team in their state like many of their counterparts (Georgia/ Georgia Southern, Ohio State/Youngstown State).
McNeese St.
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 15:25 — Mike (not verified)Regardless of how he worded it, UNC's decision to play McNeese St. does nothing to change the perception of not wanting to face ASU. McNeese St. looks much more repsectable than they are because of an 11-1 record last year, but in arguably 1-AA's weakest conferece. They were destroyed 44-15 at home by an Eastern Washington team that got dismantled the next week in Boone. Trust me, UNC's coaches know this too.
I was at the EWU and ASU
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 17:49 — gvillegatrI was at the EWU and ASU game. and I recall a close game not a dismantle. it was like within a TD. i'll go hunt the score down.
just as I remembered ....
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 17:52 — gvillegatrjust as I remembered .... 38-35. hardly a dismantle!!
Score
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 18:10 — Mike (not verified)True, you got me there, I was actually at the game too. Shoulda remembered that! It was only a 3 point win, but if you recall it was 38-21 with 3:00 left, the starters came out and EWU scored twice at the end, once due to a fake punt they ran to the 2 yard line. In any case, not a dismantling. But, they were a team that beat McNeese St. by 4 TD's on their home field, so my point about the team UNC selected to play still stands. My bad about the score though.
"The reality" is
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 10:43 — Appstate77 (not verified)"The reality" of the situation is that ACC and SEC coaches have told our coaching staff that as long as Armanti Edwards is our QB they will not play us. We had Georgia scheduled for 2010. They moved the game to 2013 so they would not have to face Edwards.
The defense rests.
"The reality"
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 13:04 — JWB (not verified)Provide proof that ACC and SEC coaches told App's coaching staff that as long as Armanti Edwards is QB they won't play App, or it didn't happen.
you want "proof"? Just
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 21:52 — Anonymous (not verified)you want "proof"? Just look at your team's future schedules.
"Proof"
Fri, 08/22/2008 - 07:16 — JWB (not verified)By looking at NC State's (my alma mater) future schedule, I'll be able to see the proof that ACC and SEC coaches have told the coaching staff at App. St. that they won't play App. St. until Edwards is gone? That doesn't make much sense.
"Please draw your own
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 10:41 — Mike (not verified)"Please draw your own conclusions. I'll stick with mine: I-A vs. I-AA games can only be bad for the I-A team and are almost always won by the I-A team." Wasn't your point in the original article that FANS get cheated by this game? I am an ASU Alumni, but I'm not so delusional to think that ASU could consistely compete with top-tier 1A teams, because it's just the depth due to scholarship differences is just too much. Now, in years past it was almost always a foregone conclusion that a 1A/1AA game would be a blowout, but the 1AA squads have definitely narrowed the gap (Western excluded... sorry, couldn't resist). I don't think fans would feel cheated by a 23-10 game (ASU/NCSU in 2006), a 23-12 game (ASU/Clemson 1997), a 20-10 game (the previously mentioned ASU/Wake game 2001), a 45-42 game (Furman/UNC) in 2006, a 28-17 game (Furman/Clemson 2003) a 22-15 game (ASU/Auburn 1999), etc. Point is, if the 1A teams have some guts when they schedule a 'gimme' game (i.e. not scheduling WCU, Chattanooga, Davidson, etc.), their fans WILL get their money's worth for the game, and in all likelihood, still get a W towards their bowl resume.
"showing us the "reality of the situation"?
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 10:33 — Anonymous (not verified)My my....You ACC folks think your doo-doo doesnt stink don't you. Since you feel the need for some "reality"...We'll show it to you if you folks will "man up" and play us instead of McNeese State and James Madison.
for the record
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 09:38 — Anonymous (not verified)Just for the record WFU is 6-5 against App since Moore got there and 15-7 overall. We have put the Caldwell years behind us and if I recall Wake beat App, Grobes first year (2001) at Wake. Its a new era at Wake!
Wake has admitted they dont
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 10:28 — Anonymous (not verified)Wake has admitted they dont want to play good football teams and that is why you dont play us anymore. Bad football teams are found in the ACC. Grobe didnt schedule that game, he had to honor it, but he has run scared since.
Actually
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 11:16 — Anonymous (not verified)Actually, Jim grobe said (this is as close as I can recall) That App was a really good football team and that he and Moore were good friends and didnt want to play him. Then went on to clerify that he wanted to play teams on our level (meaning the BCS level) and that he saw no benefit in playing App or any other FCS team. The record is what it is, and until you play the other BCS schools in the state stop bringing up Wake.
Quote
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 12:19 — Mike (not verified)Here is what the said word for word:
"I know one time Coach Moore asked me, you know, he had kinda heard that maybe we thought the game had some bad blood to it, you know, that is was maybe some sinister reason for not wanting to play and I said ‘Coach, honesty, I don’t want to get my butt beat by you, you know. And that’s the honest truth.’
There are a lot of programs out there at the championship level that can beat bowl level teams and Wake Forest, you know, we’re playing in the Atlantic Coast Conference (and) there’s no way in the world that I want to play a tough non-league schedule.
From our stand point here at Wake Forest we’re looking for teams that are really, truly at the bowl subdivision level and teams that are going to be pretty much even with us. Teams that if we play we got a chance to beat.
I think any time you play a team like Appalachian State you’re gonna have an opportunity to be the Michigan that year. There’s not a team in North Carolina in the bowl subdivision that wants to play Appalachian State because you know that there’s a real good chance that they’re going to kick your rear end."
Take that how you will, but I believe his reasoning for not wanting to play ASU has a lot more to do with the possible loss than his friendship with Jerry. I like to see any team in the state do well, so congrats on all Wake's recent success, but I just think it would be a great thing for the state of NC if the ACC boys would schedule ASU to keep an active rivalry. I totally see the 'no-win situation' point for the ACC schools as far as wins and losses go, but I can tell you this, the Wake Forest team would improve more on the field get a lot more out of a game against ASU to prepare them for the ACC season than they will by opening with Baylor.
At least Grobe was honest
Fri, 08/22/2008 - 08:34 — Appsolutely (not verified)...instead of trotting out a bogus argument like, "we're playing McNeese State because we want to establish a recruiting presence in Louisiana."
Listen Tar Holes: if you want to establish a recruiting presence in Louisiana, grow a pair and go play LSU.
oooohhhhh!!!!!! score for
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 07:46 — mad_maxoooohhhhh!!!!!! score for JP. that's why he's the best! glad to be back on, looking forward to another season. keep up the good work JP!
I-A teams have everything to
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 07:44 — Tar Heel Fan (not verified)I-A teams have everything to lose and nothing to gain in these matchups.
nice work jp
Thu, 08/21/2008 - 01:37 — izzykareemthere's a saying in egypt: "oooh, so now the ants have teeth?"
App State may could even compete decently if they joined 1-A. They'd get more scholarships for sure, but at this point, they'd probably have to play in some lame conference like EZU and still have an inferiority complex.
But thanks for showing them the reality of the situation. Also nice to throw in there a dig at UNC-CH and Duke for not playing them. OH man how i wish UNC would lose to McNeese State.
Three words: "little man
Fri, 08/22/2008 - 12:25 — Reality (not verified)Three words: "little man syndrome".
Instead of being proud of their accomplishments and being excited about the upcoming season, they try to find something to crow and whine about in the same breath.
There is no doubt that you have had a great run with Coach Moore and have carved a niche out in your division, but bad mouthing everybody in the process will not win you any sympathy when you can't get people to play you.